Daily Kos

Il Berlusconi

Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:20:03 PM PDT

Remember Silvio Berlusconi, Bush's Italian pal?

Bush: We welcome the Prime Minister as a good friend ... He understands the history and the values that our two countries share."

Well, yes, it does appear that Silvio has an interest in history, in particular a fascination with the 1930s.  Now that Berlusconi's conservative party has once again taken control of Italy, they've been sharing their history lessons with the country.  First, there was the election of one of Berlusconi's lieutenants as the new mayor of Rome.

On Monday night, the area around Rome's city hall rang to chants of "Duce! Duce!", the term adopted by Italy's dictator, Benito Mussolini, equivalent to the German "Führer". Supporters of the new mayor gave the fascist Roman straight-arm salutes.

Does Godwin's Law still apply if people are proudly waving the banner of fascism?  While one Berlusconi lieutenant was celebrating his mayoral victory, another was reminding the opposition that not following the new government didn't mean just getting a beating at the ballot box.

The prime minister-elect's closest ally, Umberto Bossi, the Northern League leader, kept up the intimidating rhetoric, arriving for the first session of Italy's parliament warning of violence if the centre-left did not go along with his plans for federalism.

"I don't know what the left wants [but] we are ready," he told reporters. "If they want conflicts, I have 300,000 men always on hand."

And if there was any doubt at all about where this is heading, Berlusconi put his signature on the official fascist embrace.

Silvio Berlusconi, who won a general election earlier this month, welcomed the latest evidence of Italy's leap to the right by declaring: "We are the new Falange." Although he took care to wrap his remark in a classical context, his choice of words appeared to be a nod and a wink to his most extreme supporters. The original Falange - the word means "phalanx" - was the Spanish fascist party, founded in the 1930s, which supplied Francisco Franco's dictatorship with its ideological underpinning.

Once again Bush has demonstrated the kind of keen human insight that he got from peering into Vladimir Putin's baby blues and discovering him to be "straightforward and trustworthy."  It's clear that in sitting down with Silvio, Bush partnered with a man who's determined to bring fascism back to Italy, even if it requires violent suppression of opposition. Either Bush was completely taken in by two men who were determined to put in place non-democratic nationalist governments run by threat and cronyism, or he was sympathetic to those positions.  Neither choice is particularly comforting.

Earlier, Bush had bragged of his partnership with Berlusconi.

The people of the United States and Italy love freedom. And we know that freedom must be defended.

We also understand that defending freedom requires cost and sacrifice.

Having helped to secure a foothold in Europe for neo-fascism, what future sacrifices might be needed to ensure that Italian freedom is retained?  

I hear there's a good beach at Paestum, down in Salerno.

  • ::

Tags: George W. Bush, Silvio Berlusconi, Italy, Fascism (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 112 comments

  •  Yikes (15+ / 0-)

    That's chilling.

    This is what happens when you deregulate media to the point that one guy owns everything.

    Live every week like it's Shark Week.

    by droogie6655321 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:22:43 PM PDT

    •  America, too, is experiencing fascism. (6+ / 0-)

      With the suspension of the Writ of Habeas Corpus, via the Military Commissions Act of 2006, the Constitution is, in effect, also suspended.

      The US is currently a democratic fascist state, in that we still hold elections yet we have no technical individual liberties, the Great Writ having been suspended.

      The government is in a position to move forcefully against any civil unrest at the mere direction of the President.  

      Not Kent State force.  We're talking about Chilean style force of the '70s.  Yeltsin style force of the mid-90's.

      •  exactly (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        XOVER, greenearth, planetclaire4

        Either Bush was completely taken in by two men who were determined to put in place non-democratic nationalist governments run by threat and cronyism, or he was sympathetic to those positions.

        Seeing as that's exactly what type of government he and his buddies have been building... I'll go with the "he was sympathetic" option.

        XOVER's sig has it exactly. Bush isn't talking about the same thing as we are when he says "freedom" and "democracy". He means for corporations. Now, when he talks about sacrifice he means the rest of us.

        "...with Liberty and Justice for All."

        by cshardie on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:44:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Fascism = Corporatism (10+ / 0-)

    As for Dubya's judgement about people...

    Well, let's just say that Shit Midas strikes again!

    100% wrong, all the time.

    JOHN McCAIN = George W. Bush's 3rd term.

    by chumley on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:23:13 PM PDT

  •  bush is probably a NeoFascist (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    greenearth, planetclaire4

    Whom would THAT surprise?

    Show of hands?

    The Daily Outrage: It's like being a punk rocker, but without the optimism.

    by eroded47095 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:23:22 PM PDT

  •  Squadrism raises its ugly head again (9+ / 0-)

    Fascists squadrists committing violence against the left (and even rival Fascists) played a large role in the destablization of Italy, pushing Mussolini into power.

    Will the Republicans take a page from Berlusconi and deploy their own violent mobs in the U.S.?

    It sure worked to stop vote-counting in Florida in 2000.

    You can't reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into. - Jonathan Swift

    by A Mad Mad World on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:24:01 PM PDT

  •  If this keeps up (10+ / 0-)

    I'm sure Berlusconi will end up hanging around.

    Maybe upside down...

    "When the President does it, it's not illegal" - Richard Nixon, 1974; US Congress, 2008

    by nightsweat on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:30:48 PM PDT

  •  Here we go again. (3+ / 0-)

    These people are sickening.

    Here you are with a handful of holes, a thumb up your ass and a big grin to pass the time of day with. - The Wild Bunch

    by jazzence on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:32:23 PM PDT

  •  God bless Italy. (9+ / 0-)

    It makes me feel better (in a sick way) to know that there is another advanced, democratic, admirable country that is governed by a bunch of loons.

  •  I've got a friend in Torino (16+ / 0-)

    who equates Berlusconi to Rupert Murdoch holding political office.

    There is a prominent fascist movement in Italy, and many Italian footballers sport the hair, tattoos and attitudes, as well as the right arm salute.  

    There are assholes and troglodites in every society.  One of the beautiful things about Italy (and there are many) is that in the same region where wannabe fascists share their oh-so-rebellious tattoos, there is an international anti-racist football tournament.  

    Let's hope that Italy finds its way back to reality soon.

    "My relationship with America does not fit on a damn bumper sticker" -- Crashing Vor

    by balancedscales on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:32:45 PM PDT

    •  I absolutely agree with your final sentence (7+ / 0-)

      Italy's post-WWII history is full of too many governments falling after too-short periods of time.  Fractured Italian politics create gridlock and foster corrupution, with the result being that issues of poverty and crime do not get successfully addressed.  The people then vote to "throw the bums out" - again and again and again.

      The Northern League - more well off economically - wants to secede for a numbers of reasons, not the least of which is that they don't want to support the more impoverished southern region of Italy.

      The latest election appears to be a result of the slow down of the economy and the center-left's inability to deal with it (whether or not they could actually have done anything is another question).  And, yes, Silvio's control of the media also helped to pre-ordain the election results.  People - whether in Italy or elsewhere - often vote their pocketbooks, even if "throwing the bums out" means bringing the same or worse bums in.

      Rehnquist and O'Connor may be gone, but three thieves remain.

      by apple badger on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:01:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Perfect obsevation! (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      balancedscales, greenearth

      I've got a friend in Torino ... who equates Berlusconi to Rupert Murdoch holding political office.

      RM uses pawns and shills, but S(oh)B revels in his public perfidy.

      It's too bad that Italy tends to treat politics like a form of Pro Wrestling -- it's an expensive indulgence, and the already-rich aren't paying for their tickets.

      No chicken should follow John McCain across that bloody road!

      by MT Spaces on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:03:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My God (14+ / 0-)

    The prime minister-elect's closest ally, Umberto Bossi, the Northern League leader, kept up the intimidating rhetoric, arriving for the first session of Italy's parliament warning of violence if the centre-left did not go along with his plans for federalism.

    "I don't know what the left wants [but] we are ready," he told reporters. "If they want conflicts, I have 300,000 men always on hand."

    What will Jonah "Fascism is a Leftist phenomenon" Doughy Pantload say?

    I am aware of all internet traditions

    by calipygian on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:32:47 PM PDT

  •  oh good (7+ / 0-)

    we're not the only nation to elect crooks and freaks.

    Central PA Kossacks holy frak, i got centrist! (-0.12, -3.33)

    by terrypinder on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:32:51 PM PDT

  •  Lots of anti-immigrant sentiment they can exploit (3+ / 0-)

    The Italians - like the French - have long struck me as a fundamentally frivolous people. [Which has its charms, of course.] But I don't think our language has a word sufficient to describe the stupidity here.

    Surely there are a few old folks in Italy who remember how things turned out the last time they tried Fascism?

    "Some of you may decide that my FISA position is a deal breaker. That's ok." - Barack Obama

    by Joe Beese on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:34:59 PM PDT

    •  People have an amazing ability (4+ / 0-)

      to forget the past (when they want to forget about it).

      And it will be easy to say it won't be the same this time.

      You can't reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into. - Jonathan Swift

      by A Mad Mad World on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:37:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Caution (9+ / 0-)

      The Italians - like the French - have long struck me as a fundamentally frivolous people. [Which has its charms, of course.]

      I would caution you that such generalizations about "fundamental" characteristics of national or ethnic groups are, to me at least, uncomfortably close to the very chauvinism and bigotry  which form the basis of the Fascism we are fighting against.

    •  Italians and French seem quite different to me (0+ / 0-)

      And as far as being frivolous, no one can compete with the Americans.  Half our population is too busy watching American Idol and Dacing With The Stars to bother voting.  

      I really think your post more or less comes across as being an "arrogant American", as you are criticising other countries when our country has done a lot more harm to the world in recent years.  Was it the French who invaded Iraq?  

      I seriously have a hard time figuring out where you are coming from with this.  I think you seriously embarrass yourself by criticizing other countries considering the extremely sorry state of affairs here in the United States.  

      Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

      by Asak on Thu May 01, 2008 at 02:06:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  yeah and in (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    balancedscales, greenearth

    264 days 4 hrs 23 min lets hope Bush is therehttp://www.backwardsbush.com/

    IS IT JAN. 20th 2009? Yet?

    by surfdog on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:36:13 PM PDT

    •  It didn't start with Bush and it won't stop with (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      RonV, cshardie, greenearth

      Bush.  This is the real war going on. Simple regional solutions won't work. Global democratic movements are needed to stop fascism. Luckily here we are, just in time. Education and communication wins this war and the internet gives us those weapons.

      Everybody eats, nobody hits.

      by upperleftedge on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:46:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Berlusconi falls under investigation (11+ / 0-)

    So, what does he do? He tries to pass a law making investigating him while in office illegal.

    Bush just wishes he had that kind of stones.

    I am aware of all internet traditions

    by calipygian on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:38:17 PM PDT

  •  Bush is so jealous (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    RonV, litho, greenearth

    he can hardly stand it.

    As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. - Justice William O. Douglas

    by occams hatchet on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:38:21 PM PDT

  •  If only someone had written the most carefully (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    RonV, greenearth, ignatz uk

    thought out and well reasoned argument about how this is all Franklin Roosevelt's and Hillary Clinton's fault.

  •  Wow. A boycott in order? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    abarefootboy, greenearth

    I'm already booked for a trip there this summer, but I don't think I'll be doing that again for sometime. I'd start my boycott now, but it's out of my hands (girlfriend's family)...

    Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

    by FischFry on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:39:33 PM PDT

  •  well, that's depressing. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    greenearth, GiveNoQuarter, CanyonWren

    I can't believe Berlusconi is back in - it's really unfathomable.  Corrupt and crazy, guess he does have something he shares with W.

  •  Oh drat (2+ / 0-)

    there goes my plan to retire in Italy if McCain wins.  On to Plan B.  Ciao Italia.  Hello Ireland.

    Damn it. Enough. I've had enough. And boy, does that word enough look weird when you type it enough times.

    by klnb1019 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:40:25 PM PDT

  •  Italy has serious demographic problems (9+ / 0-)

    Italy has one of the lowest birthrates of any advanced country, less than 1.5 births expected during the whole of the childbearing years of its present population. Its economy and the support of the retired population is dependent on immigrants, more so than elsewhere in Europe. The immigrant population, as usual, will have a higher birthrate. On the other hand, the zealous nationalists in Italy, who gave Berlusconi his victory, are fiercely anti-immigrant. That circle will not square, no matter how much Berlusconi wants to be the re-incarnation of Franco.

    The anti-Berlusconi force are politically inept and divided. There doesn't seem to be an easy way out for Italy.

  •  The sickest society in Europe (6+ / 0-)

    Italy is without question the most politically sick and socially sick country in the EU.  Joe Beese above is being harsh on the French.  Even Belgium is not this messed up.  The only thing that surprises me is how blatant Berlusconi himself is being.

    It sets up an interesting but frightening situation vis a vis the rest of the European Union.  No country is farther in violation of its fiscal responsibilities under the treaties that govern the EU than Italy.  I wonder what the fascists' response will be when the European Commission and European Central Bank come down on them?  Will we be looking at the 26 instead of the 27?

  •  Remarkable. (3+ / 0-)

    And while this is very disturbing, I have no doubt that we will be invading them soon. After all we are very against countries that have leaders who are like Hitler. And it doesn't get much more like Hitler than emulating Mussolini.

  •  I though the first time around was bad enough (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    greenearth, planetclaire4

    I'm not sure I'm prepared for Berlusconi Redux.

    "Intelligence and stupidity have no limits. Unfortunately it looks like stupidity has won" -Arsene Wenger

    by brownsox on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:44:29 PM PDT

  •  Bomb Italy! (0+ / 0-)

    /snark

    Seriously, we are doomed to repeat history. It's pathetic and people have no one but themselves to blame for electing the same 'ol right-wing jackasses to power.

    That's ok though. Once we elect John McCain, we can watch this country become China's concubine.

    All forms of Conservatism belong in the trash heap of history and not anywhere near our schools, government or society.

    by Brad007 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:44:46 PM PDT

  •  Berlusconi just another American Liberal.. (5+ / 0-)

    ..well at least according to nitwit Jonah Goldberg and his piece of trash "Liberal Fascism".  I wonder if he'll follow up with how Berlusconi is just like Obama politically. The stupid never ends.

    "A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having." --V

    by moondancing on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:45:15 PM PDT

  •  yeah .. nice beach ... at Paestum (0+ / 0-)

    I feel great love and empathy for the Italian people ... much like that which I have for my own.

    Yes we can, for ... we are one.

    by abarefootboy on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:45:21 PM PDT

  •  My God, this is so troubling (0+ / 0-)

    One has to wonder if Cheney/Bush have similar plans in mind.

    "We, two, form a multitude." --Ovid

    by CanyonWren on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:48:25 PM PDT

  •  Too bad William F. Buckley has left ... (8+ / 0-)

    ...our midst. He could be touting Belusconi's reascendance the way he not so long ago praised Pinochet and Franco, those rescuers of civilization from leftist barbarians.

    I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

    by Meteor Blades on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:48:31 PM PDT

  •  Wow (0+ / 0-)

    Please, please don't tell me the Italian people approve of this.

    •  sadly yeah (5+ / 0-)

      As a follower of Italian politics...

      In the elections, Bossi's uber-racist Lega Nord cleaned up in the industrial north, and Berlusconi picked up most everywhere else, especially the mafia-ridden south. It was just Tuscany and Emilia Romagna in the center that held for the left.

      Bossi, one should add, is a half demented loon. He's literally barely functional after a stroke. That doesn't keep him from being a vocal and scary member of the far right. He's also infamous in the European Union for the bigoted anti-immigration legislation he sponsored in the last Berlusconi government.

      He's a trigger-happy guy-- already threatened civil war in March if the ballots weren't redone like he wanted.

      He's about to be their new minister of reform. He's so not functional, however, that he is being given a co-minister.

      But without his party, the right coalition can't stand, so he has Berlusconi by the balls.  And they're already setting the new blatantly racist immigration policy into swing.

  •  We are in BizarroWorld. Yikes. n/t (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    AmericanRiverCanyon

    "Its a grave digger's song, Praising God and State. So the Nation can live, So we all can remain as cattle. They demand a sacrifice..." -Flipper

    by Skid on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:51:14 PM PDT

  •  Godwin's Law: yup, in a comment (0+ / 0-)

    First of all, Godwin's Law only talks about the likelihood of a comparison to Hitler or Nazis approaching one as the thread gets longer.  It doesn't say that the comparison is inappropriate; it just says it's inevitable.

    And sure enough, Fixed Point Theorem made a Blackwater/SA analogy, about a dozen posts into the thread.  

    Score one for Godwin's Law.

    •  Godwin's law (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Devilstower, Hastur

      If someone compares emacs users to fascists, or Bill Gates to Hitler, Godwin's law applies.

      If you're discussing actual fascists, Godwin is just a distraction.

      •  the comparisons can also be distractions (0+ / 0-)

        Given the controversial nature of comparing anyone to the SA, making such a comparison usually derails the discussion into historical trivia about the SA, arguing over which things parallel which, etc., rather than focusing on what was originally being discussed. In any case, it's pretty easy to criticize Blackwater on the merits, without resorting to loaded historical analogies.

        "See a world of tanks, ruled by a world of banks." —Sol Invictus

        by Delirium on Thu May 01, 2008 at 12:33:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Godwin's law (0+ / 0-)

        Promiscuous tossing about of the words, "fascist" and "Hitler" can be irrelevant, juvenile, and distracting.  

        At the same time, there are obvious valid ways to use "Hitler" as an example of an extreme, a person whose views and actions we can pretty much all agree we don't accept.  "Well, Mr. X, couldn't Hitler have said essentially what you are saying, given that x, y, and z?"  We'd all agree that if Hitler could have justified his views or actions based on a particular argument, that argument might be somewhat problematic.

        Some arguments based on Hitler are invalid, though less obviously so, especially when the IQ level of the conversation is low, either naturally or from the use of intoxicants.  E.g., "Hitler was a vegetarian" doesn't imply anything about vegetarianism, any more than his fondness for dogs means dogs are bad.  "Hitler outlawed private ownership of guns" is in the same category, but I still hear this one advanced seriously every so often.

        Godwin's law, as stated correctly by jdp above, is likely true.  As misunderstood as a prohibition on mention of Hitler, it's mechanical, simplistic, and downright dumb.

        (You might make a similar observation about the use of a list of three consecutive adjectives, though in that case, perhaps more of an effort should be made to avoid committing the foul.)

  •  berlusconi cares about money (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Delirium

    Fascism doesn't pay as well as a corrupt free-enterprise.  I wouldn't worry too much.

  •  don't worry (4+ / 0-)

    Berlusconi will bring criminal behavior back to government, but he's too much of a friggin' idiot to re-assemble all the parts required to make Italian fascism work again.  

    He's a complete and utter imbecile.  The fact that he's been re-elected just means that he'll be defeated again in 18-months.  

    Everyone I know in Italy is shaking their heads at this.

    What's not being said here, however, is that Walter Veltroni ran a completely ridiculous campaign.  He actually translated Obama's campaign slogans into Italian--I am not making this up--and put them on huge banners across the country.

    Which means that Walter Veltroni thought he was less popular in Italy than Barack Obama.

    Italian politics is enough to drive anyone to drink...

    ---
    Tired of violent language from right-wing pundits? Buy my book: Outright Barbarous

    by Jeffrey Feldman on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:55:33 PM PDT

  •  Italy under Berlusconi (0+ / 0-)

    might be a good hide-out for Bush and the neocon fascists who surround him, if it weren't for Italy's notoriously unstable politics.

    With Bush's luck, he'd just be settling into his villa when Berlusconi falls to the scandal du jour.  The new government would then send him packing to the Hague...

  •  We were already called "traitors" for criticizing (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    esquimaux, GiveNoQuarter

    Il Dookey over his idiot buncha lies before this genocidical bankrupting murdering torturing war.

    Next they'll come for the blogs.

    It's coming....

    The Daily Outrage: It's like being a punk rocker, but without the optimism.

    by eroded47095 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:07:55 PM PDT

  •  Mussolini's Granddaughter is Berlusconi ally (4+ / 0-)

    None of this should come as a surprise: Il Duce's granddaughter Alessandra Mussolini has been a Berlusconi ally and coalition partner.

    She quit Italy's right-wing National Alliance party to form her own after party leader Gianfranco Fini visited Israel, denounced Fascism, and apologized for Italy's role in WWII.

  •  Goose Stepping our way to Fascism! (3+ / 0-)

    It seems Democracy is on the defensive throughout the world.

    USA
    Two terms of the most rapacious corporatist philosophy, aided and abetted by the Gingrich revolution, and corporate media take-over.

    Germany
    Angela Merkel was partly a reaction to Schroder's standing up to Dumbsfeld's Old Europe analogy.

    France
    Fairly hard right turn to Starkozy.

    Belgium
    Paralyzed by fractious regional parochialism between the Waloons and the Flemish. The capital of EU is seated in Brussels!

    Turkey
    Moderate secular government voted out of power.

    Canada
    The slight rightward turn to Steven Harper's government portends a different mood for the Canadian electorate.

    Australia
    Finally after a long interval, coming out of the embrace of conservative John Howard's government.

    There are some exceptions, as Australia proves. Some in Latin America and South America.

    Globalism, brought about by rapid technological advances, but none more than the internet connectedness, is putting geographic boundaries at great peril. US still has the highest per capita consumption, and it is easy to see this on TV and movies in all corners of the world. People in rural India and China want this wealth. How do they get it?

    1. Come to US:

     1a. Professionals migrating legally
     1b. Illegal migration from south

    1. Increase their own consumption - China, India, Russia, Brazil, etc.

    In both cases, it puts enormous pressures on geographical boundaries. Capital, labor, and knowledge permeates across borders easily today. If a new knowledge base is created in US today, it takes minimal time to copy it in other parts of the world.

    Since with the exception of low wage direct touch jobs (barbers, restaurants, etc.) all other work can be done remotely, how does US maintain its high consumption and lifestyle? It cannot.

    Same thing is happening in other first world countries. And when that happens, the first things polities do is turn inwards and rightwards.

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

    by Suvro on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:29:50 PM PDT

    •  Not seeing it (0+ / 0-)

      Merkel is not a fascist.  She is probably no further to the right than many in the the Democratic party.  

      Sarkozy is to the right, but even so at worst he could be thought of as a moderate Republican, and probably to the left of many of the 'Blue Dogs'.  

      Canada is an odd situation, but the Liberals up there were in power for so long that they became corrupt.  The current opposition leader, Dion, does not appear to be an especially strong leader.  Harper sucks, but Canada does not seem in danger of moving permanently to the right (and even their right is not much farther right than the Democrats).

      Belgium seems to be more of a specific ethnic/cultural problem than anything to do with left or right.    

      I really don't think there is much support for what you are saying at all.  You're just cherry picking to support the argument you want to make.  Most Latin American governments moved to the left in recent years, not the right.  Australia has turned leftward, as you admit yourself.  Spain moved to the left.  Italy did too, before backsliding.  

      Furthermore you cannot just view the left/right labels through the prism of our experience in the United States.  The U.S. ideological spectrum is far to the right of the UK, Britain, France and Germany, at the very least.  I don't know about Australia and Italy, they may be closer to where we are ideologically.  

      These other countries are not struggling with the same exact problems as the U.S. either.  Anti-immigrant sentiment is stronger in Europe, but at the same time they need to learn to absorb immigrants to help support their aging populations.  

      Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

      by Asak on Thu May 01, 2008 at 02:27:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  heckuva job, Berlie (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Devilstower

    Either Bush was completely taken in by two men who were determined to put in place non-democratic nationalist governments run by threat and cronyism, or he was sympathetic to those positions.

    Hmm, I wonder which it could be.

    If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator.

  •  Fascism isn't all (7+ / 0-)

    goose stepping, spiffey jack boots and stiff salutes.  It's not a moldy artifact, confined to Europe, or to European history.

    Not only can it happen here, but this is it.  It won't get any more obvious.  Don't hold your breath waiting.

    The conservative movement, through Nixon, Reagan, and reaching it's zenith with the Bushco Administration, is fascism.  

    By any comparison, including any with his historical axis predecessors, Berlusconi is a lightweight compared to Bush.

    IIRC, Berlusconi hasn't launched 2 wars for corporate crony enrichment, domestic political gain, and Christian fundamentalist nutcase ideology.

    If I'm not mistaken, Berlusconi doesn't have secret torture chambers in operation around the world.

    Has Berlusconi succeed in privatizing the military, in a perverted ideological nexus between corporatism, militarism and christian fundamentalism?  I must have missed that.

    Most germaine, does Berlusconi have the "opposition" abjectly in tow, as Bush does with today's feckless, appeasing Security State Dem party?

    There is much more.  But don't fool yourselves, kiddos.  This is it.

    "We have given them the precious gift of freedom"  Sen. Hillary Clinton, speaking on the 5th anniversary of Bushco's Iraq smash-n-grab rollout.

    •  perhaps, but I'll really believe it when (0+ / 0-)

      non documented immigrants are forced to ware some kind of marking on their clothes and forced out of their homes into busses...which I guess isn't to far away.

      Lobbying the American Psychological Association to declare conservatism a conduct disorder with narcissistic personality traits and a whole lot of stupidity!

      by HGM MA on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:15:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ugh. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    planetclaire4

    Where's Lenin when you need him?

    Fascism is capitalism in decay. -- Vladimir Lenin

    by GiveNoQuarter on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:45:56 PM PDT

  •  The only question is this (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Asak

    How long will this Italian government last?  I give it a year at most.  He is an authoritarian A-hole though, I agree with that.

    "Polls are like crack, political activists know they're bad for them but they read them anyways."-Unknown

    by skywaker9 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:19:00 PM PDT

  •  Yes but does Berlusconi (0+ / 0-)

    wear a lapel pin?

    Barack Obama will be President, John Edwards will send George W Bush to The Hague

    by vanguardia on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:49:18 PM PDT

  •  I think this is pretty dangerous (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    planetclaire4, CanyonWren

    and very important development. Berlusconi and more importantly Alemanno are perhaps intent in establishing a permanent autocracy and the dismantling of democracy in Italy. This would be the same as if New York elected a openly proud neo-Nazi as mayor.  The Jewish and immigrant community in Rome have a lot to worry about tonight about who may be coming knocking on their door.  When Alemanno brags about a 300,000 army of fascist thugs and is intent on using them through violence to set public policy, that is no laughing matter.

    Lobbying the American Psychological Association to declare conservatism a conduct disorder with narcissistic personality traits and a whole lot of stupidity!

    by HGM MA on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:10:08 PM PDT

    •  just as a quibble (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      CanyonWren

      The 300,000 comment was by Umberto Bossi, head of the Northern League, not by Alemanno, the new mayor of Rome.

      Nonetheless, I think Alemanno is the bigger threat. Bossi is a former communist who's now a regionalist, and most of his politicking revolves around populist but empty speechmaking, and trying to get more money and autonomy for the regions his party represents. His party is also a mess of a variety of self-interested coalitions, combined with some actually reasonable people (there's even a social-democratic wing).

      Alemanno, meanwhile, is a dyed-in-the-wool neofascist---in the actual sense, not just as a derogatory term, since he was the former youth leader of the Italian Social Movement, a party formed in 1946 from the ashes of the Fascist Party. More problematically, he didn't really slip in... his anti-immigrant rhetoric is what won him the election, so he could legitimately claim to have a mandate to round up immigrants, which is worrying.

      "See a world of tanks, ruled by a world of banks." —Sol Invictus

      by Delirium on Thu May 01, 2008 at 12:40:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Berlusconi's Italy .... (0+ / 0-)

    ... works something like this. Say you go out for ice cream, if you are a friend of the store owner you pay one price, if the store owner only recognizes you, you pay another price, and if the store owner doesn't recognize you, you pay yet another price!

  •  Berlusconi IS a fascist terrorist (0+ / 0-)

    Berlusconi lied under oath about his membership in an organization linked to many "Lead Years" (70s and 80s violent conflict between far right and left) murders and terrorist attacks. His perjury was pardoned as part of a general amnesty. During the years of conflict, while the American press was fixated on the leftist Red Brigades, right wing terrorists killed more people, mostly innocent Italian civilians, in attacks designed to be blamed on the Reds, than the Reds did in any of their actual attacks.

    But he's so vain it's funny so it's all okay. Why take politics seriously? I mean gosh, can't you just have a laugh with the rest of us? It's not like your life might depend on it! Just stay away from Italian train stations!

    It seems like paranoid conspiracy garbage but it actually isn't. Luckily it sounds like it so no one will have to see any reporting on it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

    Conservatism is a social disease, a psychological defect of timid minds and emotionally bruised egos. It is the revenge of the nerds and it will be crushed.

    by Didi Hylobates on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:49:03 AM PDT

  •  Scary (0+ / 0-)

    Italy has returned to fascism.  Note the next time a Democrat crawls on their hands and knees to appear on Faux that Berlusconi's near-monopoly of the airwaves made this possible.

    A proud member of the "far left."

    by Paleo on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:18:17 AM PDT

  •  Devil, you know I agree with you! (0+ / 0-)

    But I wouldn't look into this too much. I lived in Italy in 2005 and that country is MESSED UP.  I love it just as much as I do the US, but they have a new government every year.  Haven't they had like 80 since they officially became a country in the early 1900's?

    The majority of the Italians are wonderful people, but some of them, like the ones that start fights at my soccer team's (AS ROMA) stadium or put up anti-semetic banners  ruin it for everyone else.  

    Fascism already has a strong foothold in Italy, and probably always will.  

    But still, my Italian professor certainly was disappointed with the result.  

    If the Republicans promise to stop telling lies about us, maybe we'll stop telling the truth about them..

    by Romaniac on Thu May 01, 2008 at 09:48:26 AM PDT

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