Daily Kos

Belated Earth Day: The Big Gulp

Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:16:29 AM PDT

It's no longer news that oil is above $100 a barrel.  In fact just yesterday the New York Times had an article on how oil had topped $116.  By the end of that same day, it had edged up to almost $120.  And the big news is there is no big news.

What was striking about this latest milestone was what didn’t happen: there was no shortage of oil, no sudden embargo, no exporter turning off its spigot.

Odds are the slope will continue up from here.  However, there's a fair degree of speculation and concern over international stability built into the current price, probably something on the order of $25 a barrel.  Just think of it as the Iraq War Oil Tax.  That speculative cost could collapse suddenly.  Oil prices just might even fall to $70 or lower -- a price that itself would have seemed high a very short time ago.

But it won't happen for long, it won't mean that those predicting peak oil are wrong, and it won't mean that we can joyfully go back to our SUVs.  Not only are there environmental and national security concerns of continuing our dependence on oil, oil prices will go higher.  Why?  Because there are so more straws being jabbed into the pool.

Producers are struggling to pump as much as they can to quench the thirst not only of the developed world, but fast-growing developing nations like China and India, the two most populous countries. To many experts, the steadily rising price underscored longer-term fears about the future of a system that has supplied cheap oil for more than a century.

"This is the market signaling there is a problem," said Jan Stuart, global oil economist at UBS, "that there is a growing difficulty to meet demand with new supplies."

Here's an important point: don't expect any announcement of "huge new oil fields" to solve this problem.  

First, most new fields fizzle.  Putting one or two exploration wells into a formation and projecting a zillion barrels of oil does not make them actually exist.  The largest oil field ever discovered... gets discovered about every six months.  So whether it's off the coast of Brazil or freshly exposed by melting ice in Greenland, the truth is none of these fields is likely to live up to its publicity.

But let's say they do.  Let's say someone discovers the next Ghawar.  Problems solved?  Not at all.  it will take years to bring any new field into production.  By that time, many existing fields -- such as Alaska's Prudhoe Bay and Mexico's Cantarell (and maybe even the actual Ghawar in Saudi Arabia) -- are likely to be out of business.  Oil fields come and go quite rapidly, and the truth is that the rate of discovery now is way down from where it was a few decades ago.  Much more production will be moving out of the market than will be moving in, and unless trends are drastically reversed, demand will continue to increase.

We can not drill our way out of this problem.  We can't refinery ourselves out of this problem.  We can't produce ourselves out of this problem.

So we build nuclear plants, right?  A few new nukes and crisis averted.  Only we can't solve this problem that way.  Not by building nuclear plants, or coal-fired plants, or even sowing a thousand wind farms.  Oil is a transportation issue, not an electricity-on-the-grid issue.  To reduce our need for oil, we need to reduce the number of multi-ton vehicles used to shuttle individuals between homes and offices.  

And that's the very good news.  Because consumption of oil is, at its heart, a social issue.  There's no Second Law of Petrodynamics that states every human being must have 20 gallons of high test to get through the day.  Sure, it will be great to have plug-in hybrids and full bore EVs on the road, but we don't have to wait until then to tackle this problem.  We can choose to end the oil crisis, and it involves no technological breakthroughs at all.

The solution lies in making choices as boring as picking up that fluorescent light bulb.  The answer is conservation.

  • Drive less.
  • Take public transit.
  • Walk.
  • If it's too far to walk, use a bike.
  • If it's too far to bike, and there no public transportation, car pool.
  • If you can't car pool, use a smaller, more efficient vehicle.
  • If you have a long commute, move closer to work.
  • If you can't move closer, take a closer job.
  • If you can't get a different job, see if you can telecommute.
It really is that simple.  Which of course, doesn't mean it will be easy.  We're accustomed to jumping in our personal battleships and cruising the highway at speeds just less than supersonic every time we get a craving for a Slurpee.  Making significant changes to oil consumption requires a sacrifice of one of the things Americans value most: convenience, and no one -- not government, not industry -- can really do as much as you can by simply parking it.

Sure, it's going to be painful.  There's a big temptation to deliver a nah-nah-nah, since many groups (including our own Energize America) advocated for an increase in the gas tax back when gas was much cheaper, with the resulting funds to be put directly to development of public transport and addressing issues that would reduce the need for oil.  Even on Daily Kos people screamed that not one penny was acceptable.  Now gas is closing on $4, the economy is being squeezed, and every dollar is going to Exxon instead of a solution.  Plus you have J. Sidney "Whiplash" McCain III suggesting that the existing gas taxes be suspended, so we can enjoy an infrastructure debt that makes the Iraq War bills seem laughably small.

There's a lot left to do.  We have to rethink a delivery network that's focused on trucks, even over distances where there are more energy-efficient alternatives.  We have to get serious about the use of rail transport for both goods and people.  We have to break the habit of flying for meetings that could be done over the phone or on the web.  We have to put leaner, greener, lighter vehicles onto the road in place of the heavy oil burners we use now.  If, sometime far down the road, we actually have enough electric vehicles out there to affect demand on the grid, we might even need to build a power plant.  But not yet, and certainly not first.

If you've been waiting for that call to sacrifice, the one that Bush never gave after 9/11, here it is: drive less.  Want a good starting target?  With gas rationing during World War II, each family was allowed four gallons a week.  Let's start there.  See if you can ration yourself -- before the price at the pump does it for you.

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Tags: Oil, Energy, Environment, Economy, Transportation (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 338 comments

  •  yep (15+ / 0-)

    I'm driving my hybrid 3.8 miles to work each day, trying to summon up the nerve to chance these roads on a bicycle...

    excellently-written diary; thanks.

  •  Hybrid car + city driving = (11+ / 0-)

    about 2.3 gals. per week currently.  It really works, folks.

    •  I wish (14+ / 0-)

      my income allowed me to splurge on a hybrid car. My last car, 1998 Honda, was destroyed when another car crashed a red light while I was on my way to the annual Labor Day Peace Show. All I could afford to replace it with was a $4,000 1997 Saturn. Four gallons a week at 25 miles a gallon will barely get me to work and back five days a week to church on Sunday plus the driving I have to do to go to interviews and photos shoots for work. You are very fortunate. I have no problem with sacrifice except when only those at the bottom are asked to sacrifice. This morning, I was coming to work and I had a Hummer in front of me and in back of me. I could never afford a Hummer (not that I want one). Those are the people whose thinking needs to be changed.

      We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

      by anastasia p on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:25:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They are hard to find, but (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        AbsurdEyes, Crashing Vor, Quinton, 1Eco

        A three cylinder Geo/Chevy Metro gets 41mpg on the highway.  They stopped making them in '00.  Not sure why...  Anyhow they can be had for dirt cheep.

        •  I had a Geo Tracker 4 X (1995), which met "her" (3+ / 0-)

          demise at age 10 years. A Dodge Durango broadsided on passenger side, while I was-- mercifully!-- driving alone. Just like the stats, I was < mile from home!

          While I watched my life review before my eyes, the behemoth shoved me across intersection -- then flipped me. I was removed thru sunroof of my ragtop.

          Only sustained a few bruises, a couple minor cuts from shower of glass from passenger window spray across seat, and two-day whiplash!

          To really understand this event, one must appreciate that I was 68 y.o. at the time, and have been disabled from degenerative arthritis in my spine since age 55!!

          My honey of a car (a great Hawai'i car, btw!) was totalled by State Farm-- and there I was w/o transportation in a wild 'n wooly ag area of the wild 'n wooly Big Island!

          Forced to purchase another car, I opted for a 2005 Chevy "Cobalt". Took title 6/18; now have 11,780 miles to date. A true "creampuff"!

          Price of gas so fierce here, my only solution on a pensioner's fixed income: park it! Oh yeah- in my carport most days. Hence the ultra-low mileage!!

          Aloha   ..  ..  ..

        •  Well, let's see (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Crashing Vor, Quinton, dolphin777

          in 1998 or 1999, I paid 79.9 cents a gallon once (in Metairie, LA when I was going to school at Tulane), for my 1990 Geo Storm - which got 32 mpg.  It was really nice paying 9.50 for a tank of gas, even for a grad student who had limited income at the time.

          This was the impetus for people to get rid of their fuel efficent cars and really start buying suburban assault vehicles.

          January 20. 2009 cannot come soon enough.

          by Crisis Corps Volunteer on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:00:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  You're going to have to sacrifice (12+ / 0-)

        because the oil supply is not increasing. Whether it is voluntary sacrifice as mentioned here by Devilstower or sacrifice because you simply can't continue to afford your current lifestyle, there simply isn't enough oil to meet the world's demand.

        Oil is going to continue to increase in price. Energy is the source of all industrial wealth. Wal*Street is not. Without an increase in the supply of energy, the capitalist economy eventually flounders from lack of growth and lack of expectation of future growth. Already, many third world economies have been priced out of the oil market. Include subsidized fertilizers in third world countries becoming scarce and you can see the present food crises is predictable is likely to get worse.

        It's just too bad we're on our own when it comes to political direction. I'm hoping that will change after November, but none of the three candidates have ever mentioned peak oil, the effects of which are happening now.

        •  Again, my problem is when (10+ / 0-)

          "you" refers to only us at the bottom of the food chain, and that has been the problem with the Bush administration on every level and why we need to totally revamp that thinking.

          The Iraq war is the perfect example. If indeed this was the "noble cause" Bush claimed it was, why did he ask only a limited number of people -- mostly those with the most limited resources -- to sacrifice and promise everyone else a "free" war? There not only should have been no tax cut, there should have been a war tax, and Bush should have slammed any wealthy person who objected as unpatriotic and anti-American.

           I think the reason people are so angry and 81% are unhappy with the direction of the country is that although Americans ARE willing to make sacrifices, they don't see those sacrifices as equally shared and they increasingly perceive that the richest among us avoid sacrifices altogether. That is the real shame of the Bush adminisitration. Well, one of the real shames.

          We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

          by anastasia p on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:55:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Peak oil stuff again (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Whimsical, Quinton
          Energy is the source of all industrial wealth.

          A) Oil is an extremely expensive source of energy.  Joule for joule, over 30 times as expensive as powder river basin coal.  Price reflects ease of recovery.

          B) Forms of energy are interchangeable.  Oil is just hydrogen and carbon.  Any conversion suffers losses, and this is no exception.  We can make oil from virtually anything that has those ingredients -- even water and carbon dioxide -- if we put in the energy difference plus the conversion losses.  See Fischer-Tropsch and Sabatier synthesis for examples.  Losses are relevant but not huge; the costs for these processes are mostly capital, not marginal.

          Which leads back to your initial point:

          because the oil supply is not increasing.

          The oil supply is no more finite than the energy supply.  Known supplies of coal exploitable at current coal prices alone are ~250 years worth at current rates.  Double our rate of consumption to account for growth and, say, syncrude production?  125 years.

          Let me be abundantly clear: This isn't going to stop until we make it stop.  We can't just wish away something that's just carbon and hydrogen.  Oil can be made from coal at ~$30 a barrel -- a good chunk of that being capital costs, so increasing the price of coal doesn't affect the oil price that much.   Bitumen, $10-$30 a barrel.  Shale, $20-40 a barrel.  The quantities of these reserves are staggering, and the ability to exploit it no more limited than the rate investors are willing to throw money at it, the rate steel mills can pump out steel (remember our steel mills shuttered across appalachia?), the rate welders can assemble it, the rate trucks can haul it, so forth.

          Remember the "rate" argument that always comes up?  No matter what the resource, Doomers always state that we're producing it as fast as physically possible.  Funny, that.  You see, the western US has some of the most convenient coal reserves in the world (and Canada's bitumen is no less convenient, but that's a whole different topic).  The US produces coal with some of the highest production tech in the world.  The US has several times the total coal reserves as China.  And China is exploiting their reserves three times faster than us.  And their rate is rapidly growing.  And they're doing this mostly with manual labor

          The concept that something spread across many tens of thousands of square miles has some low fixed rate of production is just silly.  You set up mining equipment and a rail line out of there, and you dig.  The more spots tou set up mining equipment, the more you get.  The only "rate" is how fast investors think it's worth throwing capital at producing it.

          So, what's the problem here?  The problem is that we can't change supply quickly.  In fact, we can only change it very, very slowly.  Expanding an existing field can take a few years.  Starting a whole new field can take 5 to 15 years.  That's five to fifteen years between when investors put in their money and get a single dime out of it.  What do you think happened to the investors who invested in expensive oil production back in the 1970s when prices plummetted in the 1980s?  They lost fortunes.  Many small companies went broke.  You think anyone wants to risk that again?  Oil companies place bets conservatively; it's better for them to be in the situation of not being able to produce enough rather than having too much capacity.

          Back to the original post:

          What was striking about this latest milestone was what didn?t happen: there was no shortage of oil, no sudden embargo, no exporter turning off its spigot.

          That has explained most of this rise.  Doesn't that clue anyone around here in to the fact that this rise has absolutely nothing to do with production and consumption levels?  It has everything to do with the falling dollar and investor panic.

          First, most new fields fizzle

          The implication that new finds like Carioca-Sugar Loaf and the Bakken are likely to just "fizzle" is completely and utterly wrong.  Even seismic data is moderately reliable.  But these aren't just seismic data, like, say, the oil off the Falklands.  And it's not seismic data plus oil seeps and extensive bitumen staining like Greenland, nor seismic data plus extensive production in the area like Iraq.  These are actual, producing wells.  In the case of the Bakken, the Elm Coulee field has been exploiting the Bakken extremely well and very economically; it's been a stunning success.  This would have been unthinkable just a couple decades ago when  people thought this was a 10B play that was unexploitable to its low thickness.  Enter new data and horizontal drilling.

          Putting one or two exploration wells into a formation and projecting a zillion barrels of oil does not make them actually exist.

          Oil reseves get revised up more often than down.  What, you think they're just making up numbers?  There are multiple wells, and all of the oil they're drawing up has the same chemical signature.  They're all drawing from a common pool, and that pool is utterly massive.  You can argue recovery rates, but those get revised up even more than OOIP because of tech advances.  California has seen fields go from 10-20% recovery rates to ~80% recovery rates in recent years thanks to things like steam and solvent injection.  You know all of that oil that we already "used up" in Texas and the rest of the US?  CO2 injection recovery is now expected to be able to recover an additional 100B to 400B barrels.  It's already being tested amazingly successfully in Canada.  

          The largest oil field ever discovered... gets discovered about every six months

          Not the largest ever discovered, but there's been no shortage of supergiants in the past decade, and most of them, if not already producing, are in the process of being exploited.  Carioca-Sugar Loaf is comparable in size to, for example, Ferdows Mounds Zagdeh, another recent supergiant

           By that time, many existing fields -- such as Alaska's Prudhoe Bay and Mexico's Cantarell (and maybe even the actual Ghawar in Saudi Arabia) -- are likely to be out of business

          Yes, fields come online and offline continously.  Do you have a point?  

          I love the complete lack of any coverage of syncrude, by the way.

          Oil fields come and go quite rapidly

          The average production, however, does not.  Even with the rapid failure of Cantarell, Mexico's production hasn't sharply shrunk.  It's been a steady decline.  And this is the failure of the largest productive reserve in a single country.

          and the truth is that the rate of discovery now is way down from where it was a few decades ago.

          Yeah, I mean, it's not like any of the following fields were discovered in the past decade: Jack 2 (3-15B), Noxal (~10B), Azadegan (~26B), Ferdows/Mound/Zagheh (~38B), Sugar Loaf (~25-40B), Tupi(5-8B/30B), Jupiter(5-8B), West Kamchatka (10.3B), Tahe (29B), Jidong Nanpu (7.5B; potentially 146 in all of Bohai Bay) and Kashagan (9-13B).  Nah.

           Not by building nuclear plants, or coal-fired plants, or even sowing a thousand wind farms.  Oil is a transportation issue, not an electricity-on-the-grid issue

          Energy mediums are exchangeable.  Oil can be produced from electricity, heat, or other sources.  It, however, takes some of that 5-10 year in advance infrastrucure.  All you need is to make syngas, which is nothing more than H2 and CO.  Or CO2, in the case of the Sabatier process.

          (Breathes)

          Now, that I've had to go through this big long post defending the future of oil, let me attack it for a second and bring things full circle.  The point for bringing this all up cannot be stressed enough:

          The Problems Caused By Burning Fossil Fuels Are Not Going To Fix Themselves.

          As long as we keep buying oil, they're going to keep producing it.  And they can produce it for a heck of a lot less than it costs now, so long as they can predict in advance that the prices will be high enough a decade down the road.  And as they keep producing it, it's going to get dirtier and dirtier, the more we rely on syncrude.  This has to stop, and the only way it's going to stop is if we make it stop.  The problem is not going to fix itself.

          (Before anyone responds to this post, check and see if I've already answered your argument here)

          •  A lot of detail, but (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            grndrush

            it still seems like near term peak to me. Peak oil is not about running out of oil, but about flow rates and return on investment and ultimately EROEI and net energy (in conjunction with other energy sources).

            The long lag times between project initiation and completion and the massive investments that will be necessary for increasingly hard to get and non-conventional oil almost guarantee peak flow rates just by themselves.  Meanwhile, the costs of these investments will be escalating (due to energy costs and energy costs which are embedded in material costs), rendering production that was initially considered profitable less so or even unprofitable. The easily tapped high ROI and high EROEI sources (in the middle east for example) that provided reserve production capacity will be not be replaceable en mass but rather replaced piecemeal and at a rate insufficient to overcome underlying depletion.  No matter how much oil is left and in what form they are stored, the fact that the new oil sources is becoming much harder to tap seems likely to guarantee peak oil.

            To me, the future of oil is pretty much clear: we will consume everything that is economically and energetically viable in the face of escalating investment costs.  This will happen sooner rather than later.  Then, we had better have a plan B.

            •  Dirt cheap (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Quinton

              Peak oil is not about running out of oil, but about flow rates

              Which I already addressed, in detail with syncrude.

              return on investment

              If you can make something for ~$30 a barrel and sell it for $120, your ROI is through the roof.

              ultimately EROEI and net energy  (in conjunction with other energy sources).

              EROEI is a very misleading measure.  All it measures is whether something can be an energy source or not, not whether it makes sense to do it.  As was stated at the very beginning, oil could be an energy sink, starting with nothing more than carbon dioxide and water and using external power, but if it keeps cars moving and people will pay for it, it makes economic sense.  For an energy "source", oil is ridiculously expensive; it's no huge loss, economically.

              The long lag times between project initiation and completion and the massive investments that will be necessary for increasingly hard to get and non-conventional oil almost guarantee peak flow rates just by themselves.

              No.  It will always reflect how accurately people judged how much demand there would be 5-15 years ago.  It's not like there was no investment in new production in the past two decades.  That stuff will continue coming online, and will continue to reflect the accuracy (or inaccuracy) of their predictions made at the time, just as people years in the future from now will have to live with the consequences of our predictions today.

              Meanwhile, the costs of these investments will be escalating (due to energy costs and energy costs which are embedded in material costs), rendering production that was initially considered profitable less so or even unprofitable.

              Please explain to me why you're having so much trouble understanding the concept that if you can produce something at $30 a barrel and sell it at $120 a barrel that this isn't an "Oh my God I'm literally rolling in money like Scrooge McDuck" investment.

              No matter how much oil is left and in what form they are stored, the fact that the new oil sources is becoming much harder to tap seems likely to guarantee peak oil.

              Please explain to me why you skipped my entire section on syncrude and how ridiculously easy it is to get to the raw materials.  Powder river basin coal is dirt cheap because it's almost right at the surface.  Normally when someone says "dirt cheap", they mean that as a figure of speech, but in this case, it's quite literal: it really is as cheap as dirt.  You want more of it, you just move in to some other spot on the thousands of square miles, dig down past the small amount of overburden, and you're wallowing in coal.

          •  Having worked on an offshore rig (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            grndrush, Justin Lee, Quinton

            And in the Permian Basin, and in the Midwest doing exploration, I'd disagree on several points.

            We didn't drill the "easy" locations first, we drilled the likely locations.  I don't have to run a seismic line to tell that there's no oil in basalt.  We worked the world looking for stratigraphy that suggested both the right kind of depositional environment and the right kind of structural traps.

            As for "fields more often get revised up."  Yeah, you know why?  Because once you put one of the damn things on the books, it's dollar value in the bank.  You can borrow against it, set the value of your company against it, etc.  And no one will question it for decades.  I can attest personally that I know of a large reserve (this one in the western US) that appeared in stockholders reports long after we knew that it was crap.  At least how this stuff gets listed with the FEC over the years has gotten better, but you can be damn sure that older fields sitting there with unenthusiastic development are containers for finance, not oil.  It's pretty rare for a company like Shell to face up and start slicing the fictional reserves from their books.  Which leads me to..

            We look for the right stratigraphy, which gives a good sense of where to do more detailed exploration.  We run seismic, which shows some structures that might be decent traps.  We drill some exploration holes.  And if those exploration holes hit, companies are very quick to start projecting production across a broad area.  Go look at the recent finds in detail.  See how much is proven reserve.  See how much is probable.  See how much is "resource" or "hypothetical."  Check for example the two reports on the Arctic Refuge.  The two reports are 180 degrees different in where they suggest the largest reserves lie and on the size and character of the fields, and yet they both come up with massive totals -- because it's all just unproven resources.  Give me three known points and the latest tool from Dynamic Graphics, and I'll project an oil field that will swallow the Atlantic.

            Any green fields discovery that comes with reserve numbers attached is a guess.  It may turn out to be a decent guess, but it's a guess.

            And yes, you can make oil from coal.  But if you want to see bigger BS than oil field projections, it's coal reserve projections.  If we could manage to figure out the mining of deep, thick coal, the PRB might contain half of what we attribute there, but we can't, and there's not even a good idea on the drawing board for doing so.  I don't mean "we can't recover it economically at current prices for coal," I mean we can't recover it without a massive change in mining technology.  Most of what remains in the Illinois Basin is broken into small reserves that are tangled up around towns and cities.  The Kaiparowits (best coal in the US) is wedged between national parks and scenic areas.  To get close to the numbers that the NMA states, we'd have to be absolutely ruthless in our extraction, and the price per ton would have to be somewhere approximating gold.  If we continue to burn coal at the current rate in the US, we'll be running our fingers along the edge of the jar in about 40 years.  Start a significant project in synfuels based on coal, and you'll be chopping years from that deadline.

            (On the other hand, there is a lot of coal out there.  Mongolia has a lot coal that's untouched.  I mapped some resources in Pakistan 20 years back that still haven't been mined.  Let's just hope to heck no one ever actually mines.)

            •  Is it rumour, truth, or unknown (0+ / 0-)

              whether OPEC countries upped their booked reserves substantially in the 1970s in order to increase their OPEC production allocations? I've read that there are tens if not hundreds of billions of bbls of ME oil that only exist on paper (of course, just because you read it on the Internets somewhere, doesn't mean it's not true, LOL).

              GWOT - Global War on Terra(-firma) - Bush's War on the Planet.

              by grndrush on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:43:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  No oil in basalt, huh? (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Quinton

              Having worked on an offshore rig

              Which amazingly turns you into a geologist.

              I don't have to run a seismic line to tell that there's no oil in basalt.

              Oh, you don't, do you?  Better tell the people who drilled China's Xinglongtai field.  Or Java's Jatibarang field.  Or Vietnam's White Tiger.  I can keep going if you'd like.  If it's fractured and capped, it can be a reservoir.

              We didn't drill the "easy" locations first, we drilled the likely locations

              So, Pennsylvania was a lot more likely than, say, Saudi Arabia back in the 1800s?  Of course not.  But it was close, there were oil seeps, so it was drilled.  People started learning more, and hey, there were some shows in Texas and California that looked promising, so they were drilled.  Again, no Saudi Arabia.  As oil demand increased, people started looking to less convenient areas, like Venezuela and the deserts of Saudi Arabia, but hey, why wasn't Carioca drilled?  Well, several thousand meters of water wasn't exactly easy to even to explore, so it was ignored.  Hey, why have, despite extensive shows, we only ever drilled six wells in the entire history of greenland oil exploration?  It's likely, but it is not easy.  

              As for "fields more often get revised up."  Yeah, you know why?  Because once you put one of the damn things on the books, it's dollar value in the bank

              Without upward revisions, the OOIP in most fields on the planet would be a fraction the size of production from said field.  People don't explore around fields for the fun of it; they explore around them to find more oil.

              World oil estimates back in 1920 -- discovered and undiscovered -- were 60B barrels.  In 1950, 600B.  From 1970 to 1990, it went from 1500B to 2000B.  In 1994, USGS pegged it at 2400B.  In 2000 USGS then pegged it at 3000B.  Note how much more we've used now than we thought even existed in the early postwar period.

              I can attest personally that I know of a large reserve (this one in the western US) that appeared in stockholders reports long after we knew that it was crap.

              That's because you document everything that's possible to exploit, whether it's currently economical or not.  Why?  Because of things like the Spraberry field

              Go look at the recent finds in detail.  See how much is proven reserve.

              Why not go ask me to ride a unicorn while you're at it?  You know that's impossible; you don't get to P90 without extensive work on the field, long after the "recent find" stage.

              Check for example the two reports on the Arctic Refuge.  The two reports are 180 degrees different in where they suggest the largest reserves lie and on the size and character of the fields, and yet they both come up with massive totals -- because it's all just unproven resources

              And it's just as likely to be underestimated as overestimated.   In fact, the history of oil exploration is one huge underestimate after another, from Ghawar and the East Texas Field all the way up to the Bakken.

              And yes, you can make oil from coal.  But if you want to see bigger BS than oil field projections, it's coal reserve projections.

              Yes.  In the opposite direction.  Let me reiterate: that's Three Times the world's entire known reserves.

              If we could manage to figure out the mining of deep, thick coal, the PRB might contain half of what we attribute there, but we can't, and there's not even a good idea on the drawing board for doing so.

              Yeah, if only someone could come up with something like longwall mining, continuuous mining, shortwall mining, blast mining, or in-situ gassification...

              Most of what remains in the Illinois Basin is broken into small reserves that are tangled up around towns and cities

              Which is why Illinois Basin coal is so staggeringly expensive that selling it for *36 dollars* per short ton is seen as a very profitable venture!  I'll quote: "These exports from the Illinois Basin reduce what is believed to be an oversupplied coal producing region and could tighten coal availability and prices in this region."

              Nah.  The scientific community is wrong, the USGS and EIA are idiots, it's all a conspiracy, and the world is going to end right around the corner.  Right?  You know, there's a term for beliefs like that...

          •  Sounds like a PERFECT formula (0+ / 0-)

            for turning the North Pole into a bath tub in about 20 years! Assuming, of course, there are any oceans LEFT after we pump all that water into holes in the ground...

            GWOT - Global War on Terra(-firma) - Bush's War on the Planet.

            by grndrush on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 03:44:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Exactly my point (0+ / 0-)

              It is a perfect formula for turning the North Pole into a bath tub.  Actually, it's not about the 20 year timescale; it's about the one to several hundred year timescale; that's how long you need for the full effect.

              This is exactly the point of what I wrote: relying on ungrounded peak oil arguments as a solution to the problems with burning fossil fuels is a faith-based solution to climate change.  If we want to stop the world from burning fossil fuels, we have to act; it's not going to stop itself.

              •  You "make your point" (0+ / 0-)

                EXCEEDINGLY obscurely.

                GWOT - Global War on Terra(-firma) - Bush's War on the Planet.

                by grndrush on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 04:30:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Huh? (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Quinton
                  Could you explain to me what is obscure about:

                  ----

                  The point for bringing this all up cannot be stressed enough:

                  The Problems Caused By Burning Fossil Fuels Are Not Going To Fix Themselves.

                  As long as we keep buying oil, they're going to keep producing it.  And they can produce it for a heck of a lot less than it costs now, so long as they can predict in advance that the prices will be high enough a decade down the road.  And as they keep producing it, it's going to get dirtier and dirtier, the more we rely on syncrude.  This has to stop, and the only way it's going to stop is if we make it stop.  The problem is not going to fix itself.

      •  Craigslist is great for finding cars (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        dolphin777

        Just give yourself a price limit, and stick to it, then bookmark the search results for the car you're looking for in the 2 or 3 closest markets.

        Go here:

        http://geo.craigslist.org/...

        Pick a city/region from the list, then on the page that appears, click the "cars and trucks" link, then type in the kind of car you want. You'll get something like this. Bookmark it, then check it every day or two to see what shows up.

        Check out the other craigslists relatively nearby, too.

        A quick hint for faster searching, once you've clicked on each city/region, look at the URL. They'll all look like this:

        http://CITYNAME.craigslist.org/...

        Examples:
        http://akroncanton.craigslist.org/...
        http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/...

        You can stay on the same page, and just replace the city name in the URL to see what's available in each city.

        For my car, I could only afford a ridiculously low price (thousands below blue book), so it took months to find it, but getting just over 51 mph a few days ago was a nice feeling!

        Gas-cost-wise, it's like driving my old car 3 years ago.

  •  My problem with this (24+ / 0-)

    is demanding sacrifices from those least able to make them, which is what I see in a lot of the discussions about what a great thing it would be to make people really suffer for using oil. In this economy, moving closer to work or just finding  a new job usually aren't options. Often the transportation you use is dictated by that job. Here in Cleveland, for instance, public transportation is very expensive and hardly goes anywhere in this sprawling metro area. It's incrededibly difficult to get around. We need to work collectively on this problem and not rely on poor overwhelmed working people to try to come up with solutions on their own. I'd start with a windfall profits tax on oil companies to be entirely dedicated to finding alternatives to oil.

    We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

    by anastasia p on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:20:03 AM PDT

    •  The real tragedy (13+ / 0-)

      The US invested its national wealth (post WWII) into a lifestyle and living arrangement that has no future.  Cities are sprawling monstrosities and distant suburbs will ultimately be disconnected from any form of community.  

      Can you imagine retrofitting most US cities to be walking-friendly?  I don't think there's enough wealth to do so in time to avert a major crisis once energy shortages really hit.

    •  Demanding sacrifices from the poor? (7+ / 0-)

      That's not how I read it.

      It's not a question of making people suffer. Those least able to afford it are, unfortunately, going to suffer as gas prices head for the stratosphere. That's a given. It's already too late to stop that from happening. But, and this is important, there are choices the rest of us can make that will reduce that suffering.

      Think of it this way: every gallon you can choose not to burn is a gallon some poor person can use to get to her job.

      We do all need to work together to reform our infrastructure. But -- going on humanity's past history -- activism and pressure and predictions of disaster aren't going to accomplish anywhere near enough until well after the pain starts. By all means, yell at Cleveland's city government, or the state, to allocate more money and start planning better public transportation. If you can make one city more usable without cars, even though it's only one city, that's better than none.

      We won't see every city realizing it needs to change, though, until the problem is so bad no-one can avoid seeing it.

      And that's what it'll take.

      Every city.

      Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

      by Canadian Reader on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:46:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't get this statement (3+ / 0-)

        "Think of it this way: every gallon you can choose not to burn is a gallon some poor person can use to get to her job."

        ????

        The administration of this county is corrupt, inept and has priorities so misguided they are insane. We have organized, we have protested, we have attempted to do things on our own. But when your tax dollars are being directly sucked into the pockets of wealthy developers with the complicity of the local politicians and the cheerleading of the daily paper, it's beyond frustrating. And the pain here has reached a howling level. We lead the country in foreclosures, bankruptcy, poverty, job loss. The region is collapsing. And still, no one is listening to us. When do you get to the point where you just give up? So many have.

        We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

        by anastasia p on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:59:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not yet (3+ / 0-)

          There haven't really been protests yet. Amazingly, most people are still content and driving happily on $4/gallon gasoline. But I take from this diary that soon people will not be. Then we may, I hope, start seeing real protests; i.e. general strikes, shutting down rush-hour traffic, actually getting out of our comfort zones and taking risks instead of waving a sign in the Free Speech Zone on a Saturday afternoon.

          •  Don't think so. (0+ / 0-)

            Protests? Nope. People are going to start changing their behavior. They already have. I'm carpooling now. People are eating out less. Making different choices. That's why a change in the White House is inevitable.

        •  Sounds very rough. You have my sympathy. (3+ / 0-)

          As for this:

          Think of it this way: every gallon you can choose not to burn is a gallon some poor person can use to get to her job.

          ...I'm sure there are holes in that! But here's why I said that: just omitting all of our optional driving would reduce demand quite a bit.

          As they said in WW II: Is this trip really necessary?

          The trouble is we need a reason to cut back on the driving we do, not for necessity, but for convenience or fun. If we can think of conservation as something positive we're doing to ease the transition for other people who really need to drive to survive, well, that's an incentive.

          Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

          by Canadian Reader on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:22:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I partially disagree (10+ / 0-)

      It seems to me that people are just trying to problem solve on a large scale, and they're asking that you do the same on a small scale.

      I live in a city right now (Dayton, Oh). I can get anywhere in the city on my own two feet, I just have to give myself enough time to walk. If I'm in a rush, I bike. If I need to pick something up or travel out of Dayton, I drive. No big deal.

      Point is: If possible, I don't drive. Otherwise, I do. If the specifics of your life make it impossible to get anywhere without driving, then so be it, right? You gotta do what you gotta do. All anyone can reasonably ask is that you look at your options and give them a try if you can.

      Oh, also my brother lives in the suburbs, about 15 miles away from work. He bikes to work a couple times a week. It took him a while to get into shape for him to do this without being dead tired at the end of the day, but you know what? He's better for it. He has more energy, his gut is smaller, and he'll live longer.

      Sacrifice in one area often yields gains in another.

    •  What you say is true up to a point. Many... (9+ / 0-)

      ...Americans are least able to make the sacrifices and good energy policy should recognize that, as we did in Energize America. But my problem with what you're saying is that I see all too little willingness on the part of people who can sacrifice who are willing to do so. And, what is most irking is that I see a lot of that unwillingness expressed right here on Daily Kos from people who say they won't give up their "right" to live in a outlying suburb, or to drive the flashy new, 450 hp Behemoth. We absolutely DO need to work on the problem collectively. But when I hear or read here on a progressive blog how an affluent somebodies are unwilling to install CFLs or LEDs in their house because they don't like how these bulbs look in their fixtures, or how they're not willing - even three years ago when gasoline prices were 65% of what they are now - to pay more fuel taxes with the revenue going to research and development of alternative fuels, it doesn't persuade me that there will be much support for a truly enlightened energy policy.

      Again, we need to do things collectively. This shouldn't be done on the backs of the poor. But rejecting individual action as part of collective action is the same ol' same ol', and such an approach will delay real solutions.

      I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

      by Meteor Blades on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:56:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  why is it ... (0+ / 0-)

        ...a question of individual action vs. collective action???

        It seems to me, particularly in the realm of automobile usage, the real answer is to turn individual action INTO collective action.  The real problem isn't just our car culture, but our individualized car culture.  It isn't simply "convenience" that lies at the heart of much of our everyday car practices, but also the notion of "Freedom" as our cars become extensions of our own personal freedome and movement.  Car sharing and neighborhood shopping trips and all sorts of different ways for more than one person use cars seems to be the only way to bridge the infrastructure gaps that 50 years of individualized car culture have led to.

        Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

        by a gilas girl on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 07:53:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's not a question of one or the other (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          AaronInSanDiego

          It's simply a fact that Americans feel entitled to their lifestyle and rather than change they will get angry and bitch about it.  Sacrifice is hard, complaining is easy.  

          People come up with all kinds of sophistry to argue against having to sacrifice.  Like, "the poor" shouldn't have to sacrifice.  Well, that's a nice thought, but reality is harsh.  If gas is $4 a gallon, or $10 a gallon, then there's no breaks whether you're rich or poor.  

          The poor are going to get squeezed, that's a fact.  So, are the middle class.  Saying "that's not fair" is irrelevant.  We need to accept the problem and figure out how to address it, not just close our eyes and hope it goes away.  

          People turn their anger on the oil companies, saying they are ripping us off.  Even if you took all the oil companies profits, that would not significantly lower the cost of gas.  That's because high gas prices are not due to a conspiracy designed to rip us off, but rather a result of physical limitations and growing demand from other countries.  Being angry at the oil companies just diverts energy from more constructive uses which could actually do some tangible good.  

          The bottom line is that Americans are possibly the most selfish culture on the face of the planet.  We feel entitled to a lot of things that we don't deserve, and which are not sustainable in the long term.  Being forced to take only our fair share of resources is going to wreak havoc on our economy, but it's more or less inevitable unless we make vast changes to our attitudes.  

          Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

          by Asak on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:28:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  "I drink your milkshake!" (5+ / 0-)

    only it's all of our milkshakes being drunk at once.

    I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes...

    by 2501 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:22:26 AM PDT

  •  Favorite sound bite to mention to a GOPer (15+ / 0-)

    "Saw a clip of Bush during a debate before his first election railing about how horribly high oil was at $30 a barrel and how it was a result of the Dems' failed energy policy.  Didn't know whether to laugh or cry...$30 a barrel looks good now."

    h/t The Daily Show

    If you want something other than the obvious to happen - you've got to do something other than the obvious...Douglas Adams

    by trillian on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:22:33 AM PDT

  •  Investigate the unregulated speculators! (5+ / 0-)

    It's not just increased demand and limited supply that's driving up the price.

    Speculative investors, including hedge funds, banks and oil companies themselves - which are virtually unregulated when it comes to futures trading in oil - are huge contributors to the volatility and the rising prices.  

    Some say they account for $25 to $50 per barrel of crude.

    Don't put it all on the individual consumer, to drive less, buy a different kind of car, use mass transport!

    Demand that the speculators be regulated!

    •  If we manage to reduce demand... (8+ / 0-)

      ...the bubble will burst.  Speculators will get spanked, and things will get closer to normal.  Yes, we can burst the bubble if we do what is necessary.  We can't just sit there and accept $120 oil or $150 oil or whatever just because it's 'not our job.'

      Half-baked ideas for sale - cheap!

      by Steaming Pile on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:30:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well, we still need to look at alternatives (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      dolphin777, Cassandra Waites
      But I just don't think indidivdual conservation is the ticket. There needs to be a concerted, coordinated effort guided by a more enlightened administration than we've got now.

      We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

      by anastasia p on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:32:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Individual conservation BY ITSELF isn't ... (12+ / 0-)

        ..."the ticket," but the idea that individuals bear no responsibility for reducing upward pressure on supplies of easy-to-extract oil makes it a little hard to get that coordinated effort by a more enlightened administration to work, eh? If almost everyone claims they can't or won't give up their SUV, or that, at the very least it's up to the government to force industry to make all those SUVs operate on electricity, there is the problem that the electricity must come from somewhere.

        The idea that the problem is totally on the supply side and not on the demand side (for affluent countries such as the United States) is just what Dick Cheney said in 2001: "[C]onservation may be a sign of personal virtue, but it cannot be the basis of a sound energy policy." Conservation IS one of the building blocks of energy policy. Not the only one, of course, but a crucial one.

        I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

        by Meteor Blades on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 10:47:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I still have (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          mataliandy

          some gas ration coupon books from WWII.

        •  I would never consider an SUV (7+ / 0-)

          Since I got my first car in the 70s, my MAIN consideration while shopping  has been gas mileage. What's frustrating is that when I got my Datsun B-210 in 1975 or 1976, I recall a discussion with a friend of mine who had one and was trying to sell me on it, and he got almost 50 miles a gallon in his. I remember telling him no way was I going to drive a stick shift in the city and him saying, "But your mileage will only be around 40 miles a gallon!" It outrages me that these were the types of mileages we were discussing 30 years ago and now we're told we can't even get to 35 in the next 20 years. We should be at 100 miles or more! We should have cars that don't run on gas!

          We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

          by anastasia p on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:02:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  50 MPG Rabbit pickup truck (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            pHunbalanced, Quinton, Justus, 1Eco

            http://nh.craigslist.org/...

            From 1981. Yes that's an "8." It's thing like that that make me want to dope-slap every automaker who tries to claim that it's too hard to get better mileage. What a crock!

            •  And look what modern tech can do (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              mataliandy, Quinton

              Yes, I know -- I mention it every time the topic comes up.  But that's partially just because I can't wait to get mine.  ;)  (Only another couple hundred slots left on the waiting list for '09; they're going to be busy for quite a while!)  Plus, there's news!  But first, to recap:

               title=

              The Aptera comes in two versions: The Typ-1h plug-in hybrid, which gets 40 miles all-electric range plus 600-700 miles on 5 gallons of gasoline @~130mpg.  The Typ-1e goes 120 miles on electricity.  Electricity generation in power plants being much more efficient than gasoline engines, even with "dirty" power, you're still cleaner than a gasoline overall (with some pollutants like CO and VOCs, orders of magnitude better).  Batteries are lithium phosphate and should last the life of the vehicle.  An almost ridiculously low energy consumption of 80Wh/mi due to extreme streamlining and use of composites to reduce weight.  And, of course, the car has more comfort and safety features than you can shake a stick at  ;)

              Latest Aptera news: Last time I posted about it, the company had finished putting the prototypes through their paces, had raised all of the VC funding they needed to set up their factory and enter production by this October (their target date), and had announced test drives and factory tours would begin in a month or two.  

              Well, yesterday evening came the news that Aptera has hired Neil Hannermann, the manager of the Dodge Viper and Ford GT projects, to run their production operation.  IMHO, it's a perfect match, as his experience has been in low volume (as the Aptera will start out), lightweight cars with extensive use of composites.

              Sure, the Aptera's not the only good EV coming out (the MiEV is my second choice, followed by the VentureOne).  But I find it a piece of engineering beauty.

            •  that's a phony MPG claim; no need to exaggerate (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              mataliandy

              But it is true that in that era, the smallest Honda and Toyota vehicles would get over 40 MPG on the highway, even 50.  But if you drove one of these on a highway you know that the wind would really blow it around.  We get low MPG's now because our subcompact cars are heavier due to safety standards. We insist that the subcompacts be heavier so that people can drive their minivans to McDonalds without caring what they might hit.

              •  Phony? I'm not sure. Your mileage may vary. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                mataliandy

                I had a 1981 diesel Rabbit a couple decades ago. It was not a caddy, but a hatchback, so I suppose a bit smaller, but still, I got about 40 in town and 50 on the freeway. I got much better mileage than my Honda Civic that I replaced it with (but the Honda cost less to maintain).

              •  Plenty of 40MPG cars out there (0+ / 0-)

                At least if you're OK with a manual transmission and don't have a lead foot.

                A few years back, I had a Pontiac LeMans (actually something built by Daewoo). It got 40MPG and was practically immune to crosswinds (round edges everywhere on that car). It had 110,000 miles when I got it, and put another 140K on it before it wheezed its last.

                I replaced that with a '95 Civic EX, that my nephew had redneck-lowered (by torching the springs) before selling it to me. It's a solid car, and also gets 40MPG unless I let my son drive it, but I've found myself wanting to strangle the kid on a number of occasions for stuff he did to it. I only use it now when lightning or snow keep me off the motorcycle.

                Hatred is murder (1 John 3:15)
                Read FAR Future, a serial peak-oil novel, at my blog.

                by dirtroad on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:16:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Not sure about that (0+ / 0-)

                If you drive to try to get max fuel economy then the 40-50 MPG figures are not unreasonable.  I can regularly outperform the EPA estimates in my Suzuki Swift, and I'm talking about the "old" estimates that supposedly were exaggerated.  Yes, you can meet or exceed even the old estimates, but most simply do not drive in a fashion that will allow them to do so.  

                Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

                by Asak on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:37:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Got 40+ MPG in the '80's (0+ / 0-)

            My 1976 VW Rabbit got in the 30+ range.  My only new car ever was a 5 speed Plymouth Horizon, which routinely beat 40 MPH.  After I totaled it in a head-on collision, I found they had stopped making them.

        •  Many mahalo, MB! That's the quote I was (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Meteor Blades, anotherdemocrat

          referring to, see thread above.

          Aloha   ..  ..  ..

        •  I have to disagree on the "No new oil discoveries (0+ / 0-)

          Brazil discovered 3 new fields - albeit in deep water off Rio - that will take years to develop, but these fields are HUGE!!  Tupi, Jupiter and Carioca.  If true, they have more than the US.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/...

          http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

          And God so loved the world that He brought forth George W. to destroy it

          by anthracite on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:30:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The "all the big fields are found" myth (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Quinton, Justus
            Nice debunking of it here.

            The fact is, most of the world hasn't even been explored seismically, let alone had wells drilled.  It may sound like a truism, but the reality is "the easiest to find fields are found first".  The shallower they are and the closer they are to populated areas and other fields, the sooner they're found.

            Brazil isn't the only nation reporting huge finds.  China's had some huge ones, between Tahe and Bohai Bay.  West Kamchatka is a great find for Russia.  A few years back, Iran found two utter monsters in the same year.  And on, and on, and on.  And most huge "discoveries" go unnoticed because they're just growths of existing fields (an obvious exception to this rule is the Bakken, which recently did manage some coverage when it grew from 10B to several hundred B)

            About a third of current oil prices are directly attributable to the weak US dollar; it's a direct relationship, since oil is traded in dollars.  A large chunk of the rest rose during a time in which there were no oil-related factors driving oil prices.  In fact, demand has strongly relaxed (something a lot of Doomers say simply can't happen without the world going caput).  Speculation and hedging are the only logical explanations for the current prices.

            •  Weak Dollar Contribution to Oil Price (0+ / 0-)

              About a third of current oil prices are directly attributable to the weak US dollar; it's a direct relationship, since oil is traded in dollars.

              I put it different terms, but it is the same conclusion in my comment below.

            •  The doomers are full of it (0+ / 0-)

              But finding big fields will not be significant to make up for the increased demand from developing countries.  In addition, if the old big fields start to peter out, then we're going to spend a lot of effort just trying to run in place.  Peak oil isn't about all the fields being found, it's about not being able to find and develop newer fields fast enough to keep up with the decline of previous fields.  

              I guess you can say I am much less optimistic than you are that we'll find big fields at a rate fast enough to do much better than run in place, let alone meet increased demand.  That's ok though, because higher prices will mean more conservation.  We're very wasteful with power right now, so there is plenty we can cut.  

              I don't agree at all that speculation is the only explanation for increased prices.  That is pure nonsense.  Oil consumption may be flat in the developed world, but it is not in the developing world.  Production, meanwhile, has been more or less flat.  

              Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

              by Asak on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 09:42:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  They don't really... (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Ed in Montana, Asak, dolphin777, BYw, Karin J

      ...contribute to prices, perhaps to volatility. There is a fixed supply, and a fixed demand. Adding more middlemen doesn't change this reality.

      Consider: every speculator who buys oil contributes demand to the system at that