Daily Kos

Can An Intellectual Be President?

Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:53:15 AM PDT

Not can a "smart person" be president, but an intellectual.  There's a difference.  Bill Clinton attended Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar, but no one would have pegged the McDonald's-munching Clinton as an ivory-tower egghead.  George W. Bush attended both Harvard and Yale, but I think we're safe in saying that the word "intellectual" could not be attached to him with all the barbed wire in Texas.  Flipping backwards through the list of presidential candidates, the last guy who had the sign "intellectual" hanging from his neck was probably Adlai Stevenson.  Kennedy probably deserved it, but I'm assured that the "dreamy" factor offset any tendency toward sustained Latin discourse.

But after several rounds of selecting presidents by the beer test, can we instead vote for a candidate who doesn't hide her/his smarts?  Megan Daum has a discussion of the downtrodden intellectual in her LA Times column.

With political discourse reduced to screaming contests and actual news eclipsed by exclusive and shocking footage of celebrities without makeup, we've become not only impatient with but downright opposed to the kinds of ideas that can't be reduced to a line on a screen crawl or a two-sentence blog entry.

What's more, a lot of people who harbor an intolerance for complexity see it not as a character flaw but a cognitive virtue. That's because they've fallen into the trap of believing that complicated ideas ("complicated" now constituting anything that requires reading, watching or listening to in its entirety) are the purview of the "elite."

Most of the vitriol being levied at Obama these days boils down to his shocking refusal to mouth the standard phrases all politicians are supposed to say, the ones that seem to make up 110% of John McCain's vocabulary.  Listening to Obama requires that you engage more than political cruise control and actually think about what he's saying.  Can we put up with that?

But even if Obama is not an intellectual in the classic sense, there's no doubt that he's absorbed the trappings of erudite rhetoric. He offers up ideas that don't lend themselves to sound bites but require some sustained attention. And according to the media and the political spin machine, that's proof he's snobby and out of touch.

One of the things that strikes people who've spent any time in Europe is that Europeans tend to be almost universally bookish.  By that I don't mean they travel around with a copy of Proust tucked under one arm, but if they've read past the cover page of Remembrance of Things Past they're not afraid to toss their own two euros into the discussion.  That doesn't mean for a moment that Europeans are one neuron smarter than Americans, only that they don't seem convinced that knowledge is something you should feel bad about.

America suffers from a national schizophrenia on education.  Everybody thinks it's a good idea to get an education, but displaying that education is looked on as a sin.  Knowing how to do a better job for the country and explaining it with clear and thorough reasoning, rather than offering up ignorance spiced with tired stock phrases and pithy platitudes, may ultimately turn out to be disqualifying.

Fortunately this isn't true at Daily Kos.  Intellectuals aren't afraid to show their light here.  For example, within five minutes, someone will be along to explain how I misused schizophrenia.

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Tags: Education, Election 2008 (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 464 comments

    •  It really fucking bothers me that (17+ / 0-)

      It Really Fucking bothers me that the Non-College Educated voters split so often away from College educated.

      Call me a fucking elitist, but I value education and I think it's stark to see that highly educated people do overwhelming prefer Barack while the Highschool only crew is distrustful and thus an obstical...

      And we wonder why our country is fucked up?

      •  I love torturing Hillary supporters with that (18+ / 0-)

        "The more educated someone is, the less likely they are to support Hillary. How do you explain that?"

        "Some of you may decide that my FISA position is a deal breaker. That's ok." - Barack Obama

        by Joe Beese on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:58:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  She claimed the repug's low ground immediately (0+ / 0-)

          and used the KR hypnotic propaganda to keep them in an rhetorical daze, one from which they can't logically escape. If they had the tools, they wouldn't be there in the first place.

          Carmelitas, hold me tighter,
          I think I'm going down
          I'm all strung out on Hillary
          on the far side of town.

          "But their gift is an empty snake, Carrying hypocrisy in its mouth like venom" - Sami Al Hajj

          by walkshills on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:11:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Snobs! (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          SarahLee, moltar, carllaw

          When did people get so snobby on here?  I'd like to remind you that before Gore/Bush, it was always the DEMOCRAT who did better with the "Non College Educated."  

          These posts don't surprise me as much as all the recommends!  

          •  Hillary will need more than that... (0+ / 0-)

            ... to convince me she's not a DINO.

            "Some of you may decide that my FISA position is a deal breaker. That's ok." - Barack Obama

            by Joe Beese on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:26:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  First of all, (0+ / 0-)

            Democrats should do better among the non-college educated. Democratic policies are better for the lower and middle classes, and that they now flock to the Republican party is a small tragedy.

            Second, Joe Beese didn't say anything about non-Democrats, only that Hillary has less support among the educated.

            "Credulity kills" - Carl Sagan

            by Jameson on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 03:11:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  So... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          carllaw

          your goal is to alienate Hillary supporters so they will vote for McCain in the general?  Good strategy.  And we wonder why people associate intellectualism with snobbery.

          Politicians cannot be depended upon to act in the interests of the public in the absence of collective pressure.

          by Reframing the Debate on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:47:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  What's wrong with elite anyway (8+ / 0-)

        Do we want the smartest, most capable President or do we want a guy to share a beer with?

        Been there, dome that, right?

        It's the toughest job on earth, and comes with a gigaton of responsibility.

        And I neither want a tired angry old man for it, nor a woman who decided to play the scare card because her sniper story didn't work.

        Barack Obama will be President, John Edwards will send George W Bush to The Hague

        by vanguardia on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:01:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  wise with a solid moral base (8+ / 0-)

          Do we want the smartest, most capable President

          I want someone smart...but also wise with solid judgement and a compassionate sense of morality.

          Too many really smart people lack any sort of established moral base and use their intelligence enriching themselves at the expense of others.

        •  The elite are a lot funnier too... (11+ / 0-)

          In case anyone hasn't heard the quip from Adlai Stevenson, when running for president a woman told him that he had the vote of every thinking person in America.  He responded that that was great, but he needed a majority....

          A couple other good ones I just dug up:

          I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them.

          And one for the current administration:

          Saskatchewan is much like Texas- except it's more friendly to the United States.

          "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

          by cometman on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:14:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  If we had a real meritocracy (6+ / 0-)

          then that particular elitism would be great.

          But now elitism is a tested and true smear word, part of the basic right wing identity series. The right wing conservatives have no basic documents, no real definitional standards (as per John Dean); basically, they're defined by "We're not liberals" with the corollaries like "We're not elitists" ad nauseum.

          But the dark side is to deflect from the real elitists, the top 5%, the long-time monied aristocracies from the robber baron days down to the biggest corporate heads, the officer class, the NY bankers and lawyers and politicians of the K Street triad, the real people behind the curtain, the real deciders.

          "But their gift is an empty snake, Carrying hypocrisy in its mouth like venom" - Sami Al Hajj

          by walkshills on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:17:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I never quite understood (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          ssgbryan, FenderT206, justiceputnam

          the idea that Bush was the candidate you'd like to have a beer with. He always struck me as an asshole and a BS'er. But then perhaps that was part of the reason I was telling people how screwed the country was if he got elected in 2000. Well, you pay for what you get.

        •  The terms most capable (0+ / 0-)

          and most intelligent are not interchangeable.  Nor are the terms knowledge (or education) and intelligence.  Bush was in many ways quite capable, despite his social gaffes.  He was also educated at one of the best universities in the country.  The unattached word "elite" does not denote anything other than social class.  I assume you meant intellectual (or were afraid to say elitism).  The problem with running for president as an intellectual is that reasoned arguments often come across as condescension or lecturing, especially to those with religiously held beliefs.  Condescension alienates voters, just like many of the posts in this thread would.

          Politicians cannot be depended upon to act in the interests of the public in the absence of collective pressure.

          by Reframing the Debate on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 12:07:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Any crook can pander to you. (0+ / 0-)

            "Crossing the aisle" does not automatically make one a centrist. It may mean that one is simply a sellout. -phonatic

            by James Kresnik on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 01:29:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I wasn't defending (0+ / 0-)

              anti-intellectualism, merely trying to explain it.  The original poster asked what was wrong with being intellectually elite.  For example, while Obama's "bitter" remark may have been accurate, it was not meant for public consumption for exactly the reason I stated... that it comes across as patronizing.

              Politicians cannot be depended upon to act in the interests of the public in the absence of collective pressure.

              by Reframing the Debate on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 02:06:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Are we using elite as a synonym for condescending (0+ / 0-)

          I think we need to agree on a definition. Do we mean elite as special, unusually outstanding? As in "elite athlete?" Yes, I want that kind of elite as my political leader.

          However, along with that has to come empathy and understanding.

          Too many people use "elite" as a synonym for condescending, snobbish and exclusionary. That's NOT the kind of elite I want as my political leader.

          The response I wish a candidate could give but can't, is: If, God forbid, your child had a potentially fatal brain tumor, who would you want treating that child? An "elite" surgeon or a run-of-the-mill mediocre surgeon?

      •  Spelling and language (0+ / 0-)

        Must make your parents proud of your college education! :-0
      •  I value knowledge as well (9+ / 0-)

        But sometimes you can't get that at a university.

        "If you want to get laid, go to college. If you want to learn, read a book." --- Frank Zappa

        Live every week like it's Shark Week.

        by droogie6655321 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:13:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Nonsense (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        elmo

        I'm sorry, but which candidate in this race (or any other!) doesn't have a college education?  

        •  McCain barely does (0+ / 0-)

          Finished nearly last in his class at the Naval Academy (which I think you have really work hard to do if your dad was admiral and your grandfather was too.)

          "A word after a word after a word is power." -Margaret Atwood

          by John Shade on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:55:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The results, once again, speak for themselves. (0+ / 0-)

            That admiral's xon crashed five expensive pieces of taxpayer property. He should have been grounded after the third. It's another case of affirmative action for the ruling class.

            "Crossing the aisle" does not automatically make one a centrist. It may mean that one is simply a sellout. -phonatic

            by James Kresnik on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 01:34:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I disagree. (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        SarahLee, Uncle Moji, carllaw

        Politics, and political discussion is not for everyone, regardless of education.  Some may keep up with the news, but even the news does not give a full and complete picture.  You have to be willing to look for information on your own to be a truely informed voter.  But some, and I think this affects the high school only voter more than most, don't even have time in their daily life for the news.  And what little they do catch ends up being misinformation.  These are the people that arn't working someplace where they are sitting on a computer and can maybe pick up some information on the internet while working.   These are people in a garage or warehouse that at best have the radio which is dominated by Republicans.   They are intrested, good, honest people, who just get misinformed.  They don't have a problem with anyone who isn't out to hurt them.  The problem is it has been easy to convince them that intellectuals are lying to and confusing them, and are really out to hurt them,  same with all the other liberal groups.

        And I think Bill Clinton said it well here.

        I know these boys. I grew up with them. Hardworking, poor, white boys, who feel left out, feel that our reforms always come at their expense. Think about it, every progressive advance our country has made since the Civil War has been on their backs. They're the ones asked to pay the price of progress. Now, we are the party of progress, but let me tell you, until we find a way to include these boys in our programs, until we stop making them pay the whole price of liberty for others, we are never going to unite our party, never really going to have change that sticks.

        It may not be true, but it is how some feel.  And attacking them on education, is the elitism that is the problem, stop alienating and find a way to bring them into the tent.

        We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America. -Barack Obama, 2004 DNC

        by Tumult on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:40:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  'The soft bigotry of low expectations.' (0+ / 0-)

          I expect more out of people who decide our leadership. Computers with internet connections are a feature of all but the poorest homes. If they don't want to remain ignorant and under-informed, that's their choice.

          "Crossing the aisle" does not automatically make one a centrist. It may mean that one is simply a sellout. -phonatic

          by James Kresnik on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 01:40:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  What drives me crazy (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ibonewits, Uncle Moji

        is the perception that to be an intellectual you have to be college educated.  Or, conversely, that somehow the college educated are always more intellectual than not.  How many people do you know who partied their way through college and haven't read a book since?  I'd have thought exposure to Bush for all these years would have driven home the point that even degrees from Yale and Harvard can't be counted on as signals of intellecual achievement.  

      •  I love how... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Uncle Moji

        ...you're spitting on the working-class Democratic base here.  That's smart.

        And it's "obstacle".

        The America I knew and loved is finally dead at the hands of bipartisanship.

        by TheOrchid on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:54:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  We tried the opposite and look at what it got us! (6+ / 0-)

      Since the "president with whom you would most like to have a beer with" got us into the huge mess our country is in right now, a person with the almost diametrically opposite qualities would definitely be a step in the right direction!

      -8.88, -7.77 THERE IS DEFINITELY NO THREAT WORTH SUSPENSION OF CIVIL LIBERTIES.

      by wordene on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:58:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  eY dooNt now (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Pandoras Box

      wAt eW ar Tokking abowt....

      "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

      by cometman on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:07:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Roland Martin Column (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      SarahLee, LordMike

      Said it all (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/15/roland.martin).  He points out all of those who are using the "elitist" phraseology are not your "average joe."  Good column that should be quoted everytime the word elite comes from someone's mouth.  Do we really want Larry the Cable guy as president?

    •  As JFK quipped, when entertaining (15+ / 0-)

      Nobel Prize Winners at the White House in 1962

      "I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent and of human knowledge that has ever been gathered together at the White House — with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."[

      "I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually." James Baldwin

      by zdefender on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:13:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yup you misused schizophrenia (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Pandoras Box, amsterdem

      People think it means "split personality" but that's a different disease altogether.  Schizophrenia is a disease where the patient has breaks with reality--psychotic breaks. Thus, the patient may see and hear things that are not really there.  I know it's more complicated than this, but it's not "split personality."

    •  My sibs hate me because I'm an "intellectual" (3+ / 0-)

      Well, they don't really hate me, but they don't like that I'm proud of being college educated. I don't lord it over them at all--they just want me to be dumb and happy, like they are!!  I know, I sound like a snob, but I'm not--I'm just sick of being asked to not be smart!  My friends and my husband love that I'm smart, so I stick with them.

    •  A prerequisite to this conversation should be (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ibonewits

      a reading and thorough analysis of Anti-Intellectualism in American Life, by Richard Hofstadter, which, although written as a response to McCathyism and the rise of Protestant Evangelicalism in the 1950s, is a trenchant and applicable, i.e. not anachronistic or irrelevent, description of our extant condition.

      Also, if one wants to impress by carrying a volume of Proust, at least let it be Volume Seven, Le Temps Retrouvé.

      The problem today is juxtaposition: right next to an article (NYT) on the death by IED of two U.S. Marines is a story entitled Cat Lovers Appreciate Soul Mate in Vatican.

  •  Raise the Titanic! (14+ / 0-)

    Obama, McCain and Hillary decide to raise the Titanic.
    Why?

    Obama wants to show that Yes we can!
    McCain wants the Titanic treasures to finance his campaign.

    and Hillary?

    She wants to hire the band that played on until the ship

    went down

    Barack Obama will be President, John Edwards will send George W Bush to The Hague

    by vanguardia on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:54:32 AM PDT

  •  Wilson will probably go down as the last one. n/t (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    calipygian, mspicata, cadejo4, RickMassimo
    •  I've been saying the same thing, it's that Obama (8+ / 0-)

      is too smart, not that he is "too black" to be president, if recent history prevails.  

      Americans don't like intellectuals not because they "distrust" them, or think them "elite," they don't like them because they're DUMB.  It's petty jealousy, and the belief that smart people are less likely to be the assholes they really want in their "leaders."  

      Americans don't bond to people smarter than themselves.  Better looking, yeah.  But smarter?  No.

      Obama is easily the smartest candidate we've had come down the pike since...  maybe ever.  

      That explains his troubles in places like Ohio and PA, and it WILL be the biggest hurdle this fall.

      •  I agree (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        TerribleTom

        There is a certain level of medieval type superstition that Americans seem to display. With all the creationism bullshit where they are on par with such enlightened places as Turkey, Iran, Nigeria etc.

        In some ways the US has a lot more in common with Iran than it does with the rest of the western world.

      •  "Black and White" vs "Grey" thinkers (4+ / 0-)

        You have "black and white" thinkers who see only one or two solutions to a problem.  One good and one bad.  Easy, fast choices.  They are the mass of the people.

        Then you have the "shades of grey" thinkers who will see multiple solutions to the same problem.  Their difficulty is determining the best solution of many possible solutions.

        "Black and white" thinkers do not understand or have patience for "Grey" thinkers.  "Grey" thinkers understand but often do not have the patience for "Black and White" thinkers.

        The great mass of voters are primarily "Black and White" thinkers.

        Obama is a "Grey" thinker as are most intellectuals.

        •  Also, en masse, people are more likely to go (0+ / 0-)

          into the "black vs. white" side of that thought-process binary.

          Get many of them alone, away from the tv, and Drudge, and turn off the talk radio, and in some cases, reasoning can break through.

          "Come on, you're smarter than that" is a great phrase to use (even if you don't totally believe it about the person.

          "A word after a word after a word is power." -Margaret Atwood

          by John Shade on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 12:01:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  but he doesn't talk like it (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        bornfdup

        Kerry did, Gore did (but doesn't so much anymore). That long winded beat around the bush why can't he get to the point what is he trying to say anyway kind of speech.

        How many times have you seen people moved to tears by a politician's words?

        That's not just any pointy headed intellectual we got here, folks.

      •  So, riddle me this... (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        klayman, JoieDe, fizziks

        ... why do the lazy and overfed adore professional athletes who shame them physically, but the intellectually lazy and uncurious hate intellectuals?

        In both cases, we have people who have high levels of proficiency and achievement, but one is admired and the other reviled!

        I think it has something to do with the fact that authoritarians have it in their interest to spread hatred of intellectuals as "elites", which is a diversion from the moneyed elites who actually hold the power in our society.

        Knowledge is power, and when one wants one's power and privilege to be preserved, undermining the power of knowledge is Standard Operating Procedure.

        The times, they are a-changin'

        by Malacandra on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:44:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Do they admire jocks and movie stars? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          James Kresnik

          There are lots of negative stereotypes about athletes and good looking stars too. "Dumb jocks", "Air head entertainers". It seems like some people enjoy watching the sports events or movies, and maybe looking at those entertainers, but they don't necessarily admire the people. The same thing would be true if they were sick, people would look for the smartest, most experienced doctor they could find, but at the same time might think of him as being a nerd.

          It's more like they generally find athletes and movie stars more useful, not that they really admire them.

      •  I'm afraid you may have a point there (0+ / 0-)

        Our most attractive movie stars are in many cases known for not being that bright, or at least not openly bragging about their smarts (I'm pretty sure some of them, from Diane Keaton to George Clooney are quite well-read and smart, few come across as that intellectual.)
        Johnny Depp's the only major star I can think of that might have that perception (but that could just be because he lives in Europe.)

        Sadly, our female stars in particular seem to be singled out for being dumb (though hopefully the Tina Feys of the world can change that.)

        "A word after a word after a word is power." -Margaret Atwood

        by John Shade on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:59:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I do agree (0+ / 0-)

        that intellectuals can be quite dumb at times. =-)

        Politicians cannot be depended upon to act in the interests of the public in the absence of collective pressure.

        by Reframing the Debate on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 12:09:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Disagree (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Fireshadow

        The elitist label as a negative is coming from elitists (the media and the Clintons and the Repub attack machine) and repeated by a sector of the voters whom, I believe, are predisposed not to vote for Obama anyway.  

        If so many people perceived Obama as elitist and were so anti-elitist, why has he done so well among voters?  He leads in popular vote, remember?

        I don't disagree that Obama is a very educated and intellectual man.  He has the ability to step back from the details and frame and reframe issues in a larger, more encompassing, and sensible way that allows for a more inclusive and solution-prone outcome.  What he does that is significant is that he doesn't Madison Avenue (Mark Penn) his thoughts or his solutions to sell them, he respects the ability of regular folks to understand the complex nature of the problems that we face as a nation.  

        Having attended Punahou on a scholarship, Obama is keenly aware of class issues. I think he would neither agree that those who have not attended college are dumb, nor would he agree that graduating from college makes one smart. Knowledge is a tool to expand compassion, not a cudgel to beat upon those who have, for whatever reason, less.

    •  You are correct! I'm impressed! n/t (0+ / 0-)

    •  And Wilson was TERRIBLE! (0+ / 0-)

      Shall I list the ways? Or can I assume that everyone knows how crappy he was?

      I am aware of all internet traditions

      by calipygian on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:21:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  no, you can't assume that (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        TerribleTom, James Kresnik

        Weird comment. Most historians rank him as near-great, with good reason.

        His first term was the culmination of the progressive era: amendments on direct election of senators and the progressive income tax, the federal reserve, a host of labor laws, etc, the appointment of Brandeis and Cardoza to the court.

        In popular consciousness, his formdiable first term accomplishments are overshadowed by his failure with the League of Nations. But that was a political failure (for which he was in part responsible), and the ideals of national self-determination rather than neocolonialism, and of  viable international organizations, were extraordinarily far-sighted, and only started to come to fruition after WWII.

        His one big failure was related to his racism. He seriously set back the very modest gains that had started with the formation of the NAACP, Booker Washington, Marcus Garvey, etc. A big black mark, but far from the whole picture.

    •  Let's not accept that (0+ / 0-)

      We've been dominated by yahoos who have put forth a different set of values... but as a progressive, I believe that the world is what we make of it.  

      If we, as a society, begin embracing a new narrative that honors academic and intellectual achievement, then we will get more leaders who embody those virtues.

      Until we again have an intellectual president.

      There are tides in the affairs of our society, and I hope we have reached the gagging point where we can see what happens where celebrity and fame is elevated above achievement, and what happens when a simpleton is given extraordinary power and responsibility.

      The times, they are a-changin'

      by Malacandra on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:39:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  "second-rate intellect, first-rate temperament" (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      TerribleTom

      Wilson definitely was the last "official" intellectual. I think you could actually make a case for Clinton, more so than Kennedy or even Stevenson (cited above).

      Oliver Wendell Holmes famously said of FDR that he possessed "a second-rate intellect but a first-rate temperament". That is probably the best test for a great president (that and the circumstances requiring greatness).

      Think of the other true intellectuals: Adams (both) and Madison were not successful as presidents, Jefferson was. Lincoln would not qualify as an intellectual.

  •  Current Political Climate = Failure of Education (21+ / 0-)

    I've said for years to anyone that will listen that our current political climate (including the election of "W") is a direct result of America's failure to properly invest in and support education.

    And, yes, that's a horribly "elitest" view...

    •  My sweetie says critical thinking (21+ / 0-)

      was thrown out the classroom windows during the Reagan administration.

      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

      by lgmcp on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:58:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And replaced (14+ / 0-)

        by "gut feeling"

        Let's switch back to the brain.

        Barack Obama will be President, John Edwards will send George W Bush to The Hague

        by vanguardia on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:02:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It all started (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        SarahLee, lgmcp

        with "new" math, and the concept that parents could no longer help their children with their homework.

        •  Surely we can't distill it down to this (2+ / 0-)

          I haven't considered the birth of anti-intellectualism in America but I sincerely doubt the fault lies in new math.  

          For a nation conceived by intellectuals, we've had a long history of anti-intellectualsim that pre-dates new math.  I suspect there have been waves and troughs around this in our history, perhaps we are moving out of the latest round of anti-intellectualism with the great disfavor heaped around President I Is Dumb, Heh Heh Heh.  I hope so.  

          •  It's not distilled down to that, (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            lgmcp

            my point was that's how it started in it's latest incarnation. I agree we're probably in a trough, but it's a downward spiral that is poised to lead to the end of our country as we knew it.

        •  There are other areas we could point to ... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          James Kresnik

          Lengthy and frequent writing essay-writing assignments, graded for both content and mechanics?

          Memorization and recitation of long dramatic poems?  

          Harsher classroom discipline including physical punishment for disruptive behavior?  Perhaps also verbal chastisement/humilation for shoddy work?

          Or perhaps going even further back, education as an obligation enforced by truancy officers instead of a privilege to be aspired to?

          It's a mix.  Personally I think an excess of "self esteem" theory had quite a bit to do with it.

          "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

          by lgmcp on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 01:12:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  new math has taken a beating (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          lgmcp

          but it can't be responsible for the praise of idiocy culture we have.  Americans have always been anti-intellectual. I think critical thinking about our origins would lead to far too much guilt for us to tolerate.  Also, we were busy for a few hundred years stealing land and building a basic infrastructure.  We didn't need to read books to do that.  

          'Banish the word "struggle" from your attitude and your vocabulary. All that we do now must be done in a sacred way and in celebration' -- Hopi Elder

          by fernan47 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 03:12:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Ack! There's only one E in elitist. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      boofdah

      See, just like Devilstower said....

      However, I agree completely with your larger point.

    •  I agree except that (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      SarahLee, rscottrewak

      much of what children learn about the world has been coming from television, internet trash, video games, mass music, mass sports and other mental junk food - all of which is controlled and produced by corporations dedicated to appealing to the lowest common denominator.
           If you offer a small child a choice of either a salad or a candy bar, how many will eat the salad?
           At this point in American history, even a second grader who prefers reading to Little League will be regarded as a little elitist by his or her  peers.
           So, invest in schools by all means, but it's not going to make us a literate nation again. Only strict controls over the crap produced by the mass media can do that - and the big money guys would scream censorship.
           However, I do agree that if a candidate who thinks in as nuanced a way as Obama can be elected, maybe there is some hope for America.

      •  Take argument one more step (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        SarahLee

        Tell me if I have the root of your argument correct: many of the motivators and incentives in our society, such as food choices, are focused on the lowest common denominator (e.g. candy bar vs. carrots).

        If that is more generally true (and I do agree there is quite a bit of truth in that statement), then our current political discourse/climate is, at least in part, a product of that same psychology, correct?

        Given that we as humans have evolved to crave sugary foods (which are easy sources of calories), have we also evolved to favor simplistic, combative dialogue?

        If (and it's a mighty big if) that's true, are we not asking people to fight human nature by voting for a candidate who explicitly denounces many traits that have been bred into us?

        PS, just playing some serious devil's advocate here...

        •  I wouldn't say it's human nature (0+ / 0-)

          to prefer junk food and junk ideas. In most of human history, we needed to use more intelligence to survive than we do now when our food, clothing and shelter are produced for us by people we don't know. Ten thousand years ago, a few people arrived here in the North East US where I live, and managed to live through a winter using just what they could produce with their own hands. They used their minds and communication abilities to share that necessary work of survival.
           So, human nature is plenty smart when it's think smart or die. However, our media corporations are working overtime to make us stupid. And since we don't need to think very hard to stay alive, we tend to just eat those mental candy bars and get dumber and fatter all the time.

        •  Refining your argument a bit, (0+ / 0-)

          we haven't "evolved" to crave sugary foods, we've been turned into sugar junkies by Big Food. Just as kids are turned into celebrity junkies even before they can talk, Barney the dinosaur, for example. All to feed the corporate machine.

    •  No Child Left Behind (4+ / 0-)

      Has further institutionalized an education of testing, and of teaching for the test.  There's little room for intellectual play or curiosity.  It's all about facts, and what's right and what's wrong.  Cram for the next test, and then forget everything right afterward.  It's all part of the dumbing down of America.

    •  Yes, and an anti-intellectual bias in culture (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Ian S, LordMike

      Probably related phenomenons.

      Conservatism = greed, hate, fear and ignorance

      by Joe B on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:09:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's Not "Elitest" (0+ / 0-)

      It's true.

      "I'm a rude dude, but I'm the real deal. Lean and mean. Cocked, locked and ready to rock; rough, tough and hard to bluff." George Carlin

      by CityLightsLover on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:10:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well the elitist Adlai Stevenson (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      SarahLee

      said:

      I don't want to send them to jail. I want to send them to school.

      "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

      by cometman on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:17:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Weren't Gore's problem was intellectualism? (6+ / 0-)

    I thought Kerry ranked pretty well there too -- and I DO mean well, because I LIKE it.  

    I mean, Kerry delved into those international money laundering operations and made headway.  That stuff is DRY and complicated, yet definitely needs doing.

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:56:22 AM PDT

    •  Weren't WE TOLD it was Gore's problem, that is? (10+ / 0-)

      Wonkish.  Now THERE'S a quality we can't afford in a leader.

      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

      by lgmcp on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:59:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, thats why this highly educated person (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        lgmcp, limpidglass

        prefers Hillary with her brilliant, wonkish, gracefull and fluid ability to detail why on policy, just as I prefered Al Gore for the very same qualities because they lead to good Democratic governing policy, and so I was no more deterred by his uncool lack of ability to share a beer with me, than I am by her being also that uncool candidate this time around.

        Obama also has a wonderfull intellectual "forest" type of brilliance, but for this time in history we really need the "trees" of actual policy brilliance.

        An example: in her clean energy plan, require all corporations to report climate risk to the SEC (and thus: shareholders)

        Nothing has been a more perverse subsidy of our fossil foolishness than the short term focus on profit as the only risk to report to the SEC so shareholders push corporations to produce in cheap China, push oil drillers to wars, push car companies to make the more profitable SUVs for suckers.

        Change that and you change everything.
        If its cheaper to drill for geothermal power than oil, even Exxon will switch. If its cheaper to move air than dig up coal, even King Coal will stop mowing down mountains.

        His clean energy plan has nothing like that: just more Bush ethanol, "clean" coal and nuclear power, all subject to the Ogalla aquifer holding up all century...

    •  The problem wasn't that he was smart (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Hillbilly Dem, lgmcp

      The problem was people thought he "acted smart." I know how that sounds, but Obama is able to let people see his intelligence without making them resent him for it or think of him as dull or professorial.

      Live every week like it's Shark Week.

      by droogie6655321 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:15:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  people thought Gore "acted smart" (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        lgmcp, dotcommodity

        because the media told them so.

        People thought Kerry was an elitist flip-flopper because the media told them so.

        The media will try the same schtick with Obama. The difference is that Bush has spent eight years destroying the Republicans' credibility, so it won't work on enough people.

        It's not inherent in the candidate. It's what the media decides to make of him/her.

        •  I think... (0+ / 0-)

          You overestimate the media's influence. People can make up their minds for themselves whether they like or don't like someone.

          And I don't think Gore (that is, 2000 Gore) or Kerry were ever as likable as Obama.

          Live every week like it's Shark Week.

          by droogie6655321 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:24:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  "because the media told them so." (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          lgmcp, limpidglass

          yeah, and as soon as Obama is the nom, the oligarchy will turn on him too.

          The naive think its something inherent in the candidate. Thats why its important to be self directed not other directed in assessing your candidate preference. Whichever we pick, you can be sure they will guarantee we have "fatigue" by the time they are done.

          As the SF mayor said of his support of Clinton regardless of decades of the RW attackmachine:

          Dogs don't bark at a parked car!

        •  did you read/hear Tim Robbins to (4+ / 0-)

          the National Association of Broadcasters Show in Las Vegas?

          "We are at an abyss as an industry and as a country...

          You, the broadcasters of this great nation have a tremendous amount of power, and a tremendous amount of potential to effect change... You can lift us up into a more enlightened age. Or you can hide behind that old adage, "I’m just a businessman. I provide what the audience wants." Well, I’m here to tell you that we don’t need to look at the car crash. We don’t need to live off the pain and humiliation of the unfortunate. We don’t need to celebrate our pornographic obsession with celebrity culture. We are better than that.

          Some of you are trying... But I know you do so against the odds of ratings and job security. It is really up to the leaders in this room. It us up to you, the zions of this industry to leave behind formulas and focus groups and your own fears of job security. Only with your courage and your vision can we begin to imagine a world of broadcasting where the broad consensus of those with real power say, "Enough is Enough."

      •  But isn't this the very heart (0+ / 0-)

        of the anti-intellectual trend that we're discussing?

        people see his intelligence without making them resent him for it or think of him as dull or professorial

        Why SHOULD intelligence be resented?  Why ARE detailed knowledge and expertise dismissed as merely dull?

        Sure, it's great if Obama can be intelligent and well-educated while also relating to people and making them like him.  In a way it's a kind of code-switching, right?  We could even stretch the point, and say, a kind of camouflage?  That kind of versatility is useful and valuable, no doubt about it.

        But it's STILL a sad and disturbing fact that withOUT the ability to duck and weave, "acting smart" is unacceptable to most Americans. Me, I like it.

        "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

        by lgmcp on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:21:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  My point was... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          lgmcp

          ... it's more a personality thing than an intelligence thing.

          Live every week like it's Shark Week.

          by droogie6655321 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:22:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Fair enough, (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            droogie6655321

            but MY point is, American voters apparently see the intelligence/education thing as a probable negative, and the personality/style thing as a positive.

            "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

            by lgmcp on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:26:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  asdf (4+ / 0-)

              I don't think they see intelligence as a negative in and of itself. I think they resent people who come off as know-it-alls. And Obama sidesteps that label nicely because people see him as approachable and willing to listen to the ideas of other people.

              I think it was Tucker Carlson who said Obama is the first Democratic candidate who doesn't make conservatives feel like he hates them because they are conservative.

              Live every week like it's Shark Week.

              by droogie6655321 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:30:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Animals (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Ari Mistral, lgmcp

              American voters apparently see the intelligence/education thing as a probable negative, and the personality/style thing as a positive

              The animal things matter like height, good looks, and often, being wild & fighting.

              Having brains is always seen as bad, although people usually accept being clever in making money.

      •  Sounds correct. Worked for JFK. (0+ / 0-)

      •  This is so true. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        lgmcp

        Gore is such a nerd and I love him for it but he's the kind of nerd that doesn't have great people skills.  Obama, on the other hand, is a nerd with great people skills.

        "We should be able to deliver hot bottled water to dehydrated babies." John McCain

        by llamaRCA on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 12:08:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I don't think Kerry's problem was that he is (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      lgmcp

      wonkish or intellectual, it's that he wasn't a good communicator.  He has a terrible internal editor, and, frankly from reading his speeches, he has a terrible external editor as well.  I like the guy, he's my Senator, but I wish he would let someone else edit his work.  

      Obama is an excellent communicator.  His speeches read like poetry.  Not just in their use of language but in their sparing use of language.

  •  Yes, we can! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Anjana

    Come on, the campaign has come up with some pretty damned good sound bites.